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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Location: Monroe, WA
I've been reading about balancing and wondering if there is a common problem with these engines shaking? We've had this one since new in 95 and it's always had almost a vibration to it. I always wrote it off as just a 3 cylinder thing, but now I'm rebuilding it and wonder if I should get the flywheel checked or actually spring for a full balance? I think I read in a clutch thread that someone replaced the flywheel and it was smoother??

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'95 Metro 1.0 / 5 spd
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:36 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
On a 95, I'd say its normal. The full electronic control throttle body on those lets the idle drop a tiny bit lower than I think is ideal for smoothness, so they always feel a bit "throbby". There is no way to turn the idle up, but once you have all cylinders very even and the timing bumped up a bit, they are pretty smooth. Didn't notice if you mentioned it, but you should really put a 3tech cam pulley in that engine with 10 degrees advance. You will like it, I've done a few, everyone has been really impressed.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:42 am 
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This one seems to be rough from idle to redline. I used to drive Fiestas before the Geo. I drove the old car once after we'd had the Metro for a couple years and couldn't believe how much smoother (and faster) the 4 cyl was. :shock:

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Malcolm

'95 Metro 1.0 / 5 spd
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:19 am 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
I got away from the Bosch Platinum plugs.
Not sure about your '95, so here's an '87 of ours to compare:
Image
38 seconds
I'm on a bluetooth in the background.
Camera is a bit shaky and the playback is a little fast.
You can hear one tappet out of adjustment.
Idle sounds high, (she might still be cold) but the engine doesn't shake.

Again, engine is pretty smooth at all rpms.

Here's a practice drill:
say three times..."NGK all the way!"
:wink:

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:39 pm 
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I sold Bosch Platinums back when they first came out in the 80s. They were instantly black listed for any 'big' engines, but we pushed 'em pretty hard on the small import stuff. I put them in my then girlfriend's Fiesta cuz it burnt oil and would eat a set of Champions or Autolights in a couple weeks. We never had them out again till I rebuilt the engine years later. So it was just a momentary lapse in judgement that I picked up a set for the Geo. ;)

I have NGK's in my Olds powered jet boat if that makes you feel any better. :D

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'95 Metro 1.0 / 5 spd
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:37 pm 
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95-3banger wrote:
I have NGK's in my Olds powered jet boat if that makes you feel any better. :D

Ha!
Yeah, you got me there.
Watch out for mwebb (GeoMetroForum fame).
He won't be posting in black, but you can bet:
viewtopic.php?p=338230#p338230
Quote:
do NOT use Bosch Platinum +4 spark plugs


and dbgear is probably wrong when he posted
viewtopic.php?p=353057#p353057
Quote:
I also switched out the Bosch Platinum plugs for the standard copper NGK 7131 and the plugs aren't fouling now.


Last year 'raging squirrel'
viewtopic.php?p=348689#p348689
wrote
Quote:
i have owned an 89, a 91, and a 95. the 95 crapped it's motor when a bosch platinum plug dropped it's tip. i also lost a snowmachine engine to the same fate. bosch platinums don't go in anything i own now.


Up in Washington State, ole G-Whiz might not be too happy:
viewtopic.php?p=323823#p323823
Quote:
My kid has burnt valves for what is likely a third time using Bosch Plus 4 platinum plugs.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:30 am 
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I can tell you don't let go when you get on a topic. :mrgreen:

I can throw up a vid too, but it isn't the Geo...

Image

Now if the Metro had a throb like this I wouldn't be worried about it.
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:15 am 
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A 3 cylinder is half of a perfectly balanced engine (I6) so it will always be out of balance. Do you have a video of it running when it was together? Was the compression and timing what it shoulda been?

Phil N Ed where is that balancing write up you did? If a guy wants to go all out, thats the way to go.

Scott

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:48 pm 
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I kinda figured you'd take it the wrong way. :oops:
So here's the long answer.


Again, your rough idle issue throughout the rpm range can fall into several categories.
The basic three are problems with:
a.) ignition
b.) fuel delivery
c.) engine internals.

a.) Ignition-
Spark plugs fall into the first category; I have tried the Bosch Platinum 'Plus' plugs and had disastrous results.
These engines only have 3 plugs, so even at $8 bucks a pop (ten years ago) I figured why not treat my engine to the best. That was before I knew about this forum. After lurking for years, I joined because they were pretty decent in their response to my question about cam shaft gear differences.
So after reading the general comments, I found I wasn't alone in my experiences with that particular Bosch plug.
Certainly, no one is bashing Bosch products; the fellows more experienced (not me) are trying to steer us on to what works, and what works well. I have never given a recommendation on which plugs to use...I'm just repeating what the others have stated over and over. I have learned from them and after using the NGKs, I never have to think about my spark plugs.
After reading your shaft rebuild thread in the transmission section, it is apparent that you are no 'dummy'.
Since you are a positive contributing member, I'd hope that some of the fellows would help you with your car, and I'm sure they will. You don't NEED their help, but if you are like me, you are willing to learn from others mistakes and thus save yourself a whole lot of grief.
So when I try to drive a point home, and suggest you use the cheapo NGK V-groove or whatever they call them these days, try to look at the positive side of it.
LONG time ago, (in Bethlehem) the boys were talking about their preferences for spark plugs on these particular engines. Several horror stories, and several recommendations were given for plugs. But let's not get to historical.
Rewind to 2010 and blueturbofly began a new thread on spark plugs. Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46985

The one post I wanted to mention is by a fellow here 't3 ragtop' (also on GeoMetroForum) who is not 'THE expert' on the later model 1.0L engines like you own, but has a fairly good 'build thread' here:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46400

He mentions in blueturbofly's thread:
Quote:
ngk plugs, hands down. i use either the basic coppers or their u-groove plugs.

for a reason, and I believe it has to do with his personal experience.

I'm certainly no expert with engines and transmissions, having but little experience.
However, you do seem to be one of the more 'mechanically inclined' members on 'The Board'.
So I thought it would be nice to let you in on the 'inside track' of knowledge that the people who have been running considerable numbers of these engines and what they recommend.
Again, I'm sure you're no dummy, and those plugs work great in a WIDE range of engines. But check through the site and see what others have to say about them. Those who like them (initially) have engine failures if you follow their posts.
This is my observation from reading this forum over the past couple of years.

b.) Fuel Delivery -
If you look at the video I posted again, you will see an engine (3 cylinder) which has just gone through a fresh rebuild and is idling for the first few hours of its service life. Apologies as the carburetor is probably not warmed up enough for a 'warm idle', but you can get the idea of how smooth its cool (not cold) idle is.
The carburetor version engine is somewhat different than yours above the rings, but the basics are the same. Your engine, a 95 should be an 'improvement' over mine engine. I'm not sure, but I think I posted an '85 3 cylinder idling, and that was the FIRST automobile engine introduced by Suzuki to the USA. Make sure you look at the coil wire to get an idea of how smooth or rough it idles.
What is the point of posting the video? The carburetor version has a different fuel delivery system than your engine.
Yours has a TBI throttle body injection (as you know) so if MY engine with NGK spark plugs and a simple Hitachi carburetor that is somewhat a mystery to me can idle that smoothly, after ignition, you need to look a the fuel delivery. There is an injector in the throttle body and you can read Fainya's posts in Texas to see how he solved his TBI problem. Again, sorry for the long answer, but sometimes the 'short of it' misses its mark, plus you put a LOT of effort into the shaft rebuild thread and did an excellent job, saving cody, me and dattman the trouble, as we had all promised to do such a thread. Again, your fuel delivery could cause the vibrational issues you mention. And the 'short of it' would be to say that includes VACUUM LEAKS. :D

c.) Engine Internals-
Now, the last section that might cause you to complain about the vibrational issues of a 1.0 has to do with internals.
Whether it is compression related, or if there is some internal imbalance...these are the things which can cause an otherwise good fuel and ignition system to result in a vibrational engine.
Since you are adept and cylinder heads and blocks, there's no need to go deeply into that subject.
However, as tbirdscott mentioned (no I've never met him) you can balance your rotating assemblies at home with a minimal ($100 or less) investment in tools. Again, I'm not too experienced with engines and the like, and I've caught a LOT of flack from some people: "I'm oversimplifying" "It won't work" "It will make it worse" etc.
However, others who have tried it seem to have similar results and so far no 'negative feedback'.
It is a simple man's technique and if you have access to a balance/blueprinter who will charge hundreds more, then by all means, go for it. One guy drove down here (Southern California) and watched/helped me balance the Wife's engine. I'll let you read what he had to say:
viewtopic.php?p=334935#p334935
Here's the DIY Engine Balance thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40445
Just like your transmission thread, the second time you split a case, I bet it only took you 20 minutes, so the DIY engine balance is similar. Once you get the hang of it, you can do the whole balance process in 15 minutes, as you only have to grind TWO rod caps.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
As tbirdscott mentioned, our 3 cylinder engines are 1/2 a straight 6. And if you've ever balanced a straight 6 (like I've done with this method), you can stand a nickle on edge on the frame while the engine is idling.

For fun, let's add
d.) engine mounts
Which is more to do with vibration being translated to the body, but it is something to consider.

Again, sorry for the long reply. You've helped a LOT of people with your trans rebuild thread, it's only fair we 'pay you back' by giving you the best information/experience we have to offer. You appear to be like most of us, no matter how little experience we have, we all enjoy the sound of an engine. I, for one, want your engine to idle like glass (unless you are installing a lopey cam) once you get it rebuilt and installed.

Happy Motoring!

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DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:26 pm 
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TPS is out of spec.

PCV is probably due, also when did you replace all the vacuum lines? They crack tiny, and leak and will cause the burble. Also have you ever changed the injector 0-rings? Pull the air cleaner turn on the ignition and take a look and see if you have any fuel dripping onto the throttle plate.

Mine idles pretty smooth, and it's got the same computer controlled idle, but the engine isn't very stock. Biggest meanest cam I could get without wrecking my idle, bolted to a +6 socket, romping 195psi on the compression gauge, breathing through a K&N filter assembly, and into a 2" veeery low restriction exhaust system. So if one should idle rough it should be mine. :lol:

Oh... I also have Polyurethane filled engine mounts, and idling the car barely has any vibration in the cabin. 8)

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My cars:

J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:02 pm 
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I think you guys are going down a different path than I was asking about. It's always run the same way, since new!!!

It was running as good as it ever did... It's just always had a funny feeling to it like it wasn't balanced very well from the factory. You can bet I'll be checking all the weights inside. I'll let you guys know what I find out.

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'95 Metro 1.0 / 5 spd
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:36 pm 
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I got out the scale today and checked my rods n pistons. 1 rod is a gram heavier than the other 2. My new pistons are the other way around so I can mix them and come up right on. I'll keep checking stuff out and see what else I come up with.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:28 pm 
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95-3banger wrote:
I got out the scale today and checked my rods n pistons. 1 rod is a gram heavier than the other 2. My new pistons are the other way around so I can mix them and come up right on. I'll keep checking stuff out and see what else I come up with.

Good thinking.
If you weigh first and then assemble, you will have less weight difference.
On these engines, the MOST I ever had to shave was the equivalent of the mass of a dime, I think is was 2.3 grams.
3 cylinder engines are an extreme challenge to get a smooth idle as compared to an inline 6.
Looking back over that balance thread, I see one of the piston/rod/pin/ring/cap/bearing assemblies weighed in at
710.09 g and that is a 'ball park' figure for one entire rotating assembly on a post '88 1.0L TBI engine.
If you can get them within .01 grams like is done in that thread, I can't see how anyone can complain.
The last digit isn't 'significant'. So if your scale can read .01 grams, then you can get it into 10ths, significantly.
However, to impress your friends you can always say that you balanced it to within a few THOUSANDTHS of a gram and they'll all be shocked.

You seem pretty clever and I'd highly recommend you take a look at this link:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_schoo ... mooth1.htm
This German is about your age and has taken the 'art'/'science' of balancing and parlayed it into a 6 figure income.
When he first posted that thread he was balancing turbos, and then he graduated to larger and larger engines.
(Think helicopter and large aircraft)
His balancing is dynamic, and not static.
Nevertheless, he brings together a great discussion of the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 16 cylinder engines including the crankshafts.

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DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Yeah, interesting read. So I guess I'm just feeling that end to end vibration when I drive. :)

Here's a pic...

Image

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'95 Metro 1.0 / 5 spd
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