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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:50 am 
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Posts: 385
Location: sidney, nebraska
I use either/starting fluid to check for leaks. It's more volatile and you get a quicker reaction when drawn in. And the large cylinders used on tractors and big rigs will screw onto a propane torch. If no leaks found in vacuum lines or diaphrams check the intake gaskets real close. You might also want to check for cracks in the flanges. 5.0L ford intakes wer prone to cracking on the #1 and #8 runners if overtightened with an inferior gasket.

What I'm trying to determine is did the problem turn up gradually or just pop up out of the blue? :huh:
If sudden then I would look for some thing broke. Sucked gasket, Cracked flange, broke vacuum line, etc. If it was gradual then look for vacuum lines that are in poor condition or swelled. Having done nothing with the carbed version of the G series engines I am not familar with these carbs or the funny little games they play. I just trying to rule out all other possibilities.

Stampy, if this carb is the same one that has worked for years and now you have a problem I dont think larger jets are the answer. If anything the mains will enlarge over the years due to erosion. If you have access to a different carb try it. If carb substitution doesnt change it then its not the carb.

1962, I applaude your dillagence. Most people wouldn't call a manufacture. By eliminatine all possible auxillary vacuum leaks helps greatly in narrowing dont the field of gremlins.

If jetting one the MCS is the issue and only one is offered my question is this. who has acces to a lathe and brass stock? Any machinist worth half his salt can make a jet. Its a brass plug with a calibrated hole and a seat. how do the MCS jets compair to carb jets? Orfice drills are availible. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NOS-15992NOS/

I may have gone off on a tangent but in my experiance the simple solution is the right one.

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1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed 3-door hatchback "herbie"
1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed convertible "sportie"


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Location: alabama
aqqus wrote:
I use either/starting fluid to check for leaks. It's more volatile and you get a quicker reaction when drawn in. And the large cylinders used on tractors and big rigs will screw onto a propane torch. If no leaks found in vacuum lines or diaphrams check the intake gaskets real close. You might also want to check for cracks in the flanges. 5.0L ford intakes wer prone to cracking on the #1 and #8 runners if overtightened with an inferior gasket.

The big thing I like about the propane, is it leaves no mess like many of the fluids do....but your right, the fluids get better responses.

What I'm trying to determine is did the problem turn up gradually or just pop up out of the blue? :huh:
If sudden then I would look for some thing broke. Sucked gasket, Cracked flange, broke vacuum line, etc. If it was gradual then look for vacuum lines that are in poor condition or swelled. Having done nothing with the carbed version of the G series engines I am not familar with these carbs or the funny little games they play. I just trying to rule out all other possibilities.

Stampy, if this carb is the same one that has worked for years and now you have a problem I dont think larger jets are the answer. If anything the mains will enlarge over the years due to erosion.
Your statement here got me to thinking and to go back and read his last post again....The jets we were referring to are the jets that are installed into the MCS. BUT only if incredibly diff size ones are found on a replacement MCS vs the old one. But I see he is in fact talking about changing out main jets. Fully agree with you on that and I hope he reads this. Changing out main jets is something one does to alter performance on alternately built engines, not done to solve an odd running problem.

If you have access to a different carb try it. If carb substitution doesnt change it then its not the carb.

1962, I applaude your dillagence. Most people wouldn't call a manufacture. IN this day and age I don't hesitate to make calls like that. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone last year with an engine mount co to ultimately find that they no longer offer mounts for our cars running the Automatic transmissions. But the effort had the techs point me in a direction that was close and made to work....restoring old cars that were extremely popular is one thing as everybody is making repro parts. But these cars its a diff story, you gott either find still good old Junk or improvise. By eliminatine all possible auxillary vacuum leaks helps greatly in narrowing dont the field of gremlins.

As I had some time today I took just that approach AGAIN. I removed every vacuum hose from my car that was attached to either the carb or the intake and plugged all the ports. She cranked right up. When up to temp the 02 sensor was swinging nicely (no lean condition) and the NEW MCS (even with its oversized jets) was reacting as it should. I fine tuned the Dwell then started reconnecting the vacuum hoses one by one. Hoping to find one that would cause it start running lean again. DAMN, not a one caused anything. I did not find any loose, nor did any appear to be cracked. But, something must have been part off. I messed with it for about an hour and never could get it to go lean again. Though most all of the hoses were already new, I plan to replace all vac rubber under the hood with new and see where we go from there. Next off day I'll take it out on the road and see if it comes back. I really hate it when you cant put a finger on the problem. Always makes one wonder will it come back.

If jetting one the MCS is the issue and only one is offered my question is this. who has acces to a lathe and brass stock? Any machinist worth half his salt can make a jet. Its a brass plug with a calibrated hole and a seat. how do the MCS jets compair to carb jets? Orfice drills are availible. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NOS-15992NOS/

I tried that idea just today. I have an assortment of old Rochester, Edelbrock, HOlley and a few other jets on hand, even some from some old bikes...None were close. But, then entire point I was making about jets in earlier posts is the fact that the Jets out of the old MCS's are fully removeable. IF a new MCS has a quite obvious overly large Jet, one can always canibalize from the old MCS.

I may have gone off on a tangent but in my experiance the simple solution is the right one.

Nothing wrong with that approach at all....alternate angles makes others think.

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Valley Grande, AL
1986 Sprint plus

Do you maintain a personal fleet like I do?
Why do we do it?
Because it's what we enjoy and because we CAN.
2011 camaro, 2005 Vibe, 2004 camry, 06 Expedition, 87 porsche 911, 86 Sprint plus, 73 gmc 4x4, 69 camaro, 99 Gl1500 Goldwing, 12 Kawasaki klr650, 2012 Kubota L3200, and we wont even go into the small stuff.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Location: Modesto, CA
6 months ago when I bought this car It idled but didn't drive well under power. Come to find out the carb was flooding out the venturis. So I rebuilt the carb and installed it. Then the car would not start without starting fluid. IT ran lean super lean assuming it ran at all. I must have some vacuum leaks or a low float level. Nope. So I went to a local junkyard and pulled another carb off of a samurai and rebuilt that one too. I got the same results. An engine that runs super lean if at all. The simplest solution is usually the answer. I looked for vacuum leaks as best as I could. Plugged every port connected to the intake and vacuum checked everthing that plugged into the intake. No leaks. Later I took it to Precision Automotive. I told them to look for vacuum leaks for one hour. They used a dealership style smoke machine and said they couldn't find any significant leaks. They also swore it was a carburetor problem and wanted to rebuild it for me. I pried the samurai away from them and towed it home. It did run better after they tuned it. It didn't idle but It ran better. The engine was peppy now and breezed past 20 Mph. I vowed now not to touch their idle or mixture screw settings. An ECM I bought off of ebay arrived. I Plugged it in and now the engine idled. It was rough high and lean but it could idle. The engine also had good power now and breezed past 20Mph.

So I tried a new mixture controller thinking that would get me the rest of the way towards a normal running car and I ended up right at the beggining again. No idle and not enough power to creep past 20 mph. One would think this must be the wrong MCS. I tried putting in the old MCS and nothing changed.

There seems to be a consensus among the Samurai community that these carburetors just go "bad" and there's nothing you can do about it.

If I attack this head on and start keep fattening up the main jet and using the road as a dyno and a multitester on the O2 sensor as my exhaust analyzer I hope to atleast get to the SMOG test.

In the mean time I am going to keep my eyes open for any good carburetors still out there.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:40 am 
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You began this thread like this:

Stampy wrote:
I just had a 1986 Suzuki samurai with a 1.3 rebuilt because of this.
What the hell does that mean?
This car acts like it is really lean at slow speed and refuses to idle or start. I checked for vacuum leaks and I had a shop check for vacuum leaks and their are none. I rebuilt the carburetor and nothing changed. The float level is correct in the sight glass and everything looks clean. The fuel cut solenoid is opening as it should.
Now, I replaced the engine computer and it ran much better and idled ok once you rev the engine to 2000 Rpm and let off.
Makes one think it is the ECM or the ECM connections, eh?
Now for the wierd part. I replaced the mixture control solenoid and it runs much worse than it ever did before. It runs leaner than ever now.
Obviously, the MCS is now the problem.
I am curious what I did wrong by replacing the mixture control solenoid?
The LAST thing you did is what screwed it up.
I need to pass California smog so I am gonna put the old solenoid back in.

Makes perfect sense. Consider yourself a 'parts swapper' at this point.
As we enter page 2 of the thread, it sounds like it wasn't running right from day one.
Stampy wrote:
6 months ago when I bought this car It idled but didn't drive well under power. Come to find out the carb was flooding out the venturis.
How did you COME TO FIND THAT OUT?So I rebuilt the carb and installed it. Then the car would not start without starting fluid. That means you screwed up the car with your carburetor rebuild.IT ran lean super lean assuming it ran at all. What are you using to determine if the engine is running lean or rich? :evil: I must have some vacuum leaks or a low float level. This is you thinking out loud, right?Nope. So I went to a local junkyard and pulled another carb off of a samurai and rebuilt that one too. I got the same results. What if you would have just put it on WITHOUT rebuilding it?An engine that runs super lean if at all. Hear we go with that lean 'defecation' again.The simplest solution is usually the answer. I looked for vacuum leaks as best as I could. Plugged every port connected to the intake and vacuum checked everthing that plugged into the intake. No leaks. Later I took it to Precision Automotive.They are a reputable shop. Which one? I told them to look for vacuum leaks for one hour. They used a dealership style smoke machine and said they couldn't find any significant leaks. So does that mean they found 'insignificant' leaks?They also swore it was a carburetor problem and wanted to rebuild it for me. I pried the samurai away from them and towed it home. It did run better after they tuned it. It didn't idle but It ran better. The engine was peppy now and breezed past 20 Mph. I vowed now not to touch their idle or mixture screw settings. An ECM I bought off of ebay arrived. Why did you buy it?I Plugged it in and now the engine idled. It was rough high and lean but it could idle. Did you think to take it back to the shop and say, "Hey, I swapped in a new ECM, can you take a second look?The engine also had good power now and breezed past 20Mph.

So I tried a new mixture controller thinking that would get me the rest of the way towards a normal running car logical assumptionand I ended up right at the beggining again. No idle and not enough power to creep past 20 mph. sure sounds like the MCS is the root of your problem.One would think this must be the wrong MCS. I tried putting in the old MCS and nothing changed.
Everytime you touch the carburetor, it seems the car takes a dump.


However, reading these two posts gives me a clearer picture of the situation.
My problem is interpreting your posts. You think you are explaining yourself clearly, but what is in your brain is not getting clearly into mine. That's why a forum is so helpful. Many brains make light work. :)

You keep mentioning that it runs 'lean'.
What type of test equipment are you using?

Next, do you have a Mighty Vac vacuum tester?
The $20K smoke machines that I'm thinking about are used to check for intake gasket leaks and vacuum leaks
WHEN THE ENGINE IS OFF.


imaiden found that the root of his problems was a bit of corrosion where the wiring harness plugged into
the ECM. If this was a part of the problem in your vehicle, then swapping in a different ECM might have helped. He bought one of the cheaper varieties of vacuum pumps from Harbor Freight and it turned out to be a bad move. Once he took it back and got the Mighty Vac variety, he was able to determine he had a bad vacuum advance.

You rebuilt the carburetor and it ran differently or the same?
I've quoted two posts of yours and you are like that Oxygen Sensor, flipping between 0 and 1 volts.

It may still be a bad MCS, but it is best to cover all the bases.
Looking carefully through your document, the word 'compression' only shows up in my signature.
If you intend to pass smog, you'd better go back to the beginning and post your compression test results.

Last, when I say post pictures of your work, I meant it.
Show us what you are working on.
We can't help you if you give us the least amount of information you possibly can.
Remember, you took it to a professional shop and they couldn't figure it out with the entire car in their possession.
Show us the under the hood, in the hood, whatever; the routing of the vacuum lines, basically everything under the hood.
Honestly, we only have a small picture of what you are dealing with.

Every car brought to this forum eventually gets fixed.
It is just a matter of time, patience, and working in a logical fashion.

A picture of the dash, for example, might not seem important to you, but it tells us a lot.
We can ask about how the radio is wired into the dash, and Samurai's will have plenty of aftermarket communications/entertainment devices wired in.
One simple mistake in adding an aftermarket device could be the reason you're having problems.

The guys helping you are no fools. They've confronted problems like yours and figured them out.
Give them the benefit of the doubt and approach this car with more logic and less emotion.

...and after it passes smog, make sure to stick around and give the rest of us a rash of sh*t.
We do have a sense of humor once the wrenches are back in the box, but if it isn't right, we can get real
focused.

I'm sure this vehicle can pass smog from what little we've heard.
How old is the catalytic converter (cat)?

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:14 pm 
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Location: sidney, nebraska
Phil is right. Start at the beginning with the basics. An engine needs thre things- fuel, fire and compression. VERIFY AND POST. Low compression will cause problems. I use the following steps. Battery fully charged. Throttle fully open. all plugs removed. Crank engine 10 pulses on guage. Check cold and write it down. Start enegine and bring to FULL temp. Repeat above. Then oil all cylinders and repeat.
Verify timing is correct. Both valve and ignition.
Verify integraty of ignition system.
Check all grounds. Clean and tight. Faulty grounds can cause all kinds of gremlins.
Inspect and service all sensor/computer conections.

If the last thing you did makes it worse then undo that and try something else.

When I rebuild carbs make sure i have a master rebuild kit on had before removal. I soak for 1 hour in B-12 Chemdip while boiling the largest pot of water I have. I remove parts and pour boiling water over them, not dip. I use a flowing rinse. The water will remove the chemical and the heat will evaporate anything in passages. The I use compressed air to dry and clear passages. Blow BACKWARDS first. This will dislodge particals that were previously loosened. Most passages get smaller towards thier destinations and chunks get stuck. I take my time. The last one I did was on an 87 nova. took me three days. Started car and spent 30 minutes adjusting. Ran great from -30 to 95 degrees.

You said it was flooding out the venturies. That tells me high fuel level possibly from needle valve or float issue. Your rebuild made it lean. That tells me you did something wrong in the process. Second attempt same results. Same thing. Did you start with a master kit or basic? Did you follow every step in exact order? Were measurements precise?

I ask and state what I do not to be mean or insulting, but to get and give info. Engines and cars are a group of balance intergrated systems. If one portion of that system is out of sync then the rest will suffer. If compression is extremly low or uneven then 10 carbs will not fix it. If timing is whacked same thing. Incorrect valve timing will cause low power and poor vacuum. Late ignition timming will cause low power and low vacuum. Acting lean.

We will help you if you help us. Good info will get good advice.

If I have offended you, tell me. If you dont want my experience, tell me. I will go away.

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1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed 3-door hatchback "herbie"
1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed convertible "sportie"


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Location: Modesto, CA
I've been trying to avoid writing small essays and I have a hard time writing a book about a problem that started 6 months ago.

I'll try my best here.

Let me retry this story and see if it makes sense to everyone here.

I bought this car about 6 months ago. After bringing it home I could see a few weird problems. One headlight was 2/3 full of water. Also, the oxygen sensor wire was cut. The intake manifold ground was cut and the wires to the reverse and 5th gear switches in the transmission were cut. The previous owner mentioned that he had replaced the clutch.

I promptly resoldered the O2 sensor wire back on. Later on in our story I soldered on a new eyelet on the intake manifold ground wire and sanded and cleaned the connection were it went on the intake manifold. I haven't done anything with the 5th gear switch or reverse light switch wires. The engine ran poorly when I bought it. It would start easily and then have a surging idle that would go between 1000 RPM and 2000 RPM almost randomly. I could drive it at low speeds ok. But once I got it over 25 Mph after a few seconds the engine would die and it would take alot of cranking to restart, then it would die again and again. Once the engine started dieing like this it was incredibly hard to drive this car. I had so little power I had to race the engine and pop the clutch or the engine would die. The engine seemed like it could not handle any kind of a load. I could not keep the engine consistently running. Once the car sat for a minute or two it would start up instantly and go to a racing idle. Later, While it was idling, I looked inside the carb throats and could see gasoline dripping out of both venturis at about 1 drop per second. The secondary was actually puddling gas on top of its throttle valve.

The vacuum lines were hard and crumbly. I went through and replaced all the vacuum lines accept the brake booster hose. I also had to reroute some vacuum lines because they were routed wrong according to a Samurai writeup. http://www.acksfaq.com/Samvacuumlines.htm The engine still ran as crappy as before.

I figured a carb rebuild must be in order so I ordered this carb rebuild kit: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/WLK0/151101A/02447.oap?year=1986&make=Suzuki&model=Samurai&vi=1271102&ck=Search_carburetor+kit_1271102_2559&keyword=carburetor+kit and began cleaning the carb. I sprayed it with carburetor cleaner and blew out the passages with compressed air. Which direction I blew them out was probably the wrong way but I made sure carb cleaner atleast shot out the end of every passage I could find. I used the cheapy float measuring paper gauge that comes in the kit to set the float level and reassembled the carb. After installing it I went to start the car and nothing. It doesn't even try to fire. I discovered starting fluid would get this car started and I could keep it idling by holding the gas pedal open. Getting into gear and making forward progress was tough. The engine still ran horribly under load. Now atleast I could keep the engine running. In order to start the engine I had to pump the accelerator pump once and in order to idle It I had to hold the throttle open with the gas pedal. Later I tried some more adjustments and tests. I raised the Idle with the cold idle speed screw and could not stop the engine from dieing at idle. I hunted for vacuum leaks with a MightVac vacuum pump and a can of starting fluid. Here I discovered a mild leak in the carburetor base gasket and the intake manifold gasket. I did a more thorough job of scraping the carburetor insulator plate with a razor blade and went and had the intake manifold resurfaced by a shop. After reinstalling both, their leaks were gone. When continuing my vacuum checks I found a very mild leak in the EGR valve regulator. I left it alone because it connects to the throttle bore above the butterfly valve and I figured it would not affect the engine idle vacuum.

I was content that I had taken care of any vacuum leaks yet the engine ran no different. I was still convinced I had a carburetor problem. I had read on Samurai forums that many seemed to agree these carbs just go "bad" and there's nothing you could do but replace it with an entirely different carburetor like a Weber or Toyota Corolla. :huh: This flys in the face of everything I had learned about carburetors but it was worth a shot. I went to a local junkyard and bought a used Samurai carburetor. While at the junkyard I looked very carefully at how the carburettor was installed and how its insulating base plate went on. I bought the same carburetor rebuild kit and tried to do a better job of cleaning this one. Judging by the way the previous carb ran I was convinced the primary circuit was partially plugged. With this second carb I removed the jets one at a time as not to confuse where they go and boiled the body in lemon juice and water for 1 hour per an internet writeup. Then I soaked the whole thing in Sea Foam for days. Then I blew out all the passages and made sure I got ALL the passages. I set the float by placing a gas can on my highest shelf and plugging a line into the fuel inlet on the carb and watching the level in the window.

I installed this second carburetor and the car still ran exactly the same. :? I figured it probably wasn't the carburetor any more but I still made vain efforts to adjust the mixture screw and idle screw. I checked for fuel flow from the fuel pump and I watched the fuel level in the sight glass. It was too high. yet I still had to pump the gas pedal to start the engine and I could never get a normal idle out of it.

Maybe I have an engine problem. I checked the vacuum once I got it to have a high idle and i had a very stable 20 psi. I went to check the compression. I started pulling all the plugs and the first plug was cross threaded and wrapped in teflon tape. the second was a in an insert and the insert was turning with my wrench. The 3rd and 4th came out ok. with a warm engine and 3 of 4 plugs removed and at wide open throttle I cranked for atleast 5 seconds and got 130 psi on cylender No. 3 and 95 psi on cylender No. 4. I did not like this at all and began the process of removing the engine. I figure rebuilding the engine has got to help somewhere. I labeled everything I took off or unpluged and removed the block with some help. I rushed everything off to Modesto Engine Re nu and had them do the rebuild. I figured it would be faster and much less painful this way. I reassembled and reinstalled the engine and replaced a missing locating dowel in the transmission bell housing that the previous owner had lost. Just for good measure I checked the compression of the rebuilt engine before reconnecting everything and cold I got exactly 130 psi on every cylinder. I reconnected everything and went to start the engine and it ran exaclty the same to me. It did run much much smoother than before but it still had the same problems.

At this point I also believed both carburetors had working mixture control solenoids in them. I jumped 12 volts across them and listened to them click. I measured about 30 ohms of resistance on one of them. I could shoot carb cleaner in the port on the side of the MCS barrels and watch it shoot out the jet in the bottom. I was also convinced that mixture control solenoids failed rich.

I still thought I might have a vacuum leak somewhere so I took the car to Precision Automotive in Modesto and had them look for vacuum leaks. The response I got back from them was something similar to this."We couldn't find any significant vacuum leaks. The timing was retarded so we advanced it. This car runs really clean but we can't get it to idle. I believe your idle circuit is blocked and we need to rebuild this carburetor." I was impressed with their work. The car ran a bit better. I no longer had to race the engine and pop the clutch to get it to move without dieing. They also built me a PCV valve hose assembly and routed it properly. I was disappointed when I got home though because I found one of my vacuum ports left unplugged. I plugged it again and the engine did not change at all.

Before this I had ordered a different ECM off ebay because I believed I was not getting a signal to the MCS. I tested for continuity between the ECM pins and the MCS wires at the top of the MCS and got a good reading. But, when doing the "buzz" test out of the Service manual I got no buzz sound. So I connected the different ECM everything seemed as usual. still had to pump the gas once or twice to start it and hold it open with the gas pedal but this time when I left off the gas pedal the engine didn't die. :D . It was idling. It was rough and at 1200 RPM but it was an idle. I took it for a drive and right away noticed how perky and eager the engine felt now. I figured I was almost ready to pass smog. The engine wasn't perfect. The idle was a bit rough and it hesitated a bit but it ran better than ever.

After lurking on this board I figured I may have a worn MCS at this point and replacing it might be the last piece in my puzzle. so I removed the top half of the carburetor and removed the old MCS by pulling it's blade pins out of the main harness. I installed the new MCS from The Carburetor Refactory and pushed its blade connectors in to the original harness. When I went to go drive the car again it ran far worse. Now it takes several pumps of the gas pedal to start and runs horribly under load. I figured their MCS must be really wrong so I promptly removed it and replaced it with the old one and still the engine ran really bad.

So this is where I am at now. Here's the two videos from my previous post of the Dwell meter on the MCS test port and the Multitester on the O2 sensor.
http://s1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii512/greggammon/?action=view&current=MOV02486.mp4
http://s1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii512/greggammon/?action=view&current=MOV02488.mp4

Sorry I don't have any new pictures yet. After typing all this I feel like I might have an electrical problem. At this point I will try to clean the connectors on the main harness because the ECM pins look clean. I will also check and ensure the MCS wires didn't get crossed when plugging them into the harness.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:54 pm 
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Hi Greg
Thanks for opening up a bit.
The boys here have heart, so don't worry if we rough you up a bit now and then.
I read about your engine rebuild and a good thought came to mind.

Now, don't go getting all mad at me but...

What IF
compression results of 130 would improve by moving the timing belt a notch or two in one direction or another?

Again, it is Saturday night
:drunk: :drunk: :drunk:
and the print looks a little fuzzy, but what if....

Glacierburst would probably fart three shades of blue if his engine only had 130 compression.
After all, his engine is only a 3 cylinder.
His engine blows a good 200 psi per cylinder, if I recall.

Otherwise, your dwell meter is looking good; need to get it to idle so the needle fluctuates a bit better, that's all.

The oxygen sensor: soldering a wire is kinda ghetto in my book.
They go bad.
How long has it been it?
Never mind.
Swap it out.
It is SUPER important and the beginning of Wisdom in the Old Testament.
Oh, wait a minute...
:drunk: :drunk: :drunk:
The O2 sensor is the MAN of the engine.
It tells the ECM what to do.
Start with a new one.
I'm not a parts swapper, but from your story, it sounds like an old one which was cut by the previous owner.
Take that part out of the equation and start with a new one.
That's what I'd do.
End of rant.
Now, where did I put that beer.
Image
I know it is in the fridge somewhere....

20 on the vacuum gauge is good, but only at idle, not at 2,000 rpms.
Again, just saying, not hating, so don't go all Postal on me, eh?

This aqqus fellow seems to have a much better way with words than me.
I'd like to repeat what he said, but I'd probably screw it up.

On your videos:
Use the LAST of the 4 links when you copy and paste.
Then we get something we can click and it will play.
Check it out:

Image

Now click on that puppy.
Yeah, score another one for Teamswift.

We'll get you smogged...you'll see.

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DIY Clutch Adjustment: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=48281
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DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:47 am 
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Thanks for the writeup.....does look like you've been trying just about anything to get it going. No doubt the original condition especially with the compression and the boogerd up plugs did not help matters. 130 is not the most impressive compression, but I recently did a rebuild myself and only saw 150 across until it got good and broke in.

I apologize if I did not pick up on the 02 sensor as well early on....that it being an old unit and all. At under $20 for a single wire, I would most definately get a new one. Without it properly working the thing never will run right, and you never will get good mixture control.

I Know you've done tons of vac testing, but humor yourself after you put in that new 02 sensor, try what I did by unplugging and capping every vac port there is, including the brake booster line. See what kind of running conditions, 02 reaction and Dwell you get then. You might wanna leave the vac advance on the distributor hooked up, but all others can be capped with no ill effects on running. If there is a time you can keep it running, the distributor vac advance is also a component that needs to be checked.

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Valley Grande, AL
1986 Sprint plus

Do you maintain a personal fleet like I do?
Why do we do it?
Because it's what we enjoy and because we CAN.
2011 camaro, 2005 Vibe, 2004 camry, 06 Expedition, 87 porsche 911, 86 Sprint plus, 73 gmc 4x4, 69 camaro, 99 Gl1500 Goldwing, 12 Kawasaki klr650, 2012 Kubota L3200, and we wont even go into the small stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Thank you for the info. We now know what your dealing with. In short you bought a problem from a hacker who butchered it.

I know of the shop you had rebuild your engine. They crank out alot of work. Double check the timing belt. Mistakes happen in mass production.
It only takes one tooth off to cause a problem.

You mentioned a leak at the egr valve. Is it the vacuum side? If so I would check to make sure the pintle is sealing correctly. A leaky egr valve can cause rough idle by leaning the mixture.

An easy way to verify you have a lean condition is to hold an unlit propane torch over carb while engine is running. if idle picks up and runs normal then you are definately lean.

In my local junk yard there is a samurai. I can check on the carb if needed.

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1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed 3-door hatchback "herbie"
1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed convertible "sportie"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:48 pm 
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Aqqus, would you describe your method of checking the pintle sealing on the EGR valve.

Thanks, Bruce


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 Post subject: EGR valve
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:19 am 
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A few things I've done.

I set the float height with the carb installed. I have about 3-4 psi of pressure from my fuel pump. If you look in one of the first pictures in this thread that was the level of fuel I found in my float bowl. Now my fuel level is viewable in the sight glass while running. That helped a little bit. but I still can't idle. I haven't tried the propane torch test on the carb to see if it is running lean but I have tried slowly closing the choke while running and slowly cupping my hands over the carb and this just seems to slow and or stall the engine.

I also took off my EGR valve. The vacuum diaphragm on the EGR valve itself tests fine with the Mighty Vac vacuum tester. The EGR valve regulator has a slow leak, but it didn't bother me because the regulator draws it's vacuum above the throttle butterflys. Later, I am going to build a block off plate for the EGR valve and temporarily block it off to see if that improves things.

What I am going to do next is go through and do all the testing the Service manual recommends I do on the ignition system. Also, the timing may still be retarded because it probably was not set at an idle speed. It is hard to tell exactly what the timing is because the timing jumps around so much.

Later I am going to try and bring you all some new compression test results on a warm and somewhat broken in engine this time.

My questions I am left with are:
-What kind of vacuum should I be able to draw off the intake side of the EGR valve port with the valve closed? Because, I jammed one of the rubber brake bleed adapters from my Mighty Vac in the port and it can't hold a vacuum.
-Would a weak ignition system cause poor running at slow speeds and what is the best way to test the strength of the spark?

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1986 Suzuki Samurai - in the works


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:48 am 
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Checking an egr pintle seal is easy. Remove valve and mount it vice or clamp to table/bench top so ports are horizontal. Fill one port with water and watch. If water transfers from one port to other its leaking. Remember water is denser than exhaust so if water seeps through exhaust is. also watch for seepage around stem since there is a seal there too.

Stampy, keep in mind that the exhaust side of the egr is under pressure and the intake side is under manifold vacuum. As to the acceptible leakage rates I couldnt tell you but I accept none. A small leak will only get worse over time. Weak ignition can cause problems too. If your timing is jumping check distributer for wear in the shaft, bearings and advance mechanism. A little slop at each point wil add up to a lot of flucutation in timing.

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1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed 3-door hatchback "herbie"
1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed convertible "sportie"


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:38 am 
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Location: Mojave, California
Thanks for those EGR testing tips Aqqus. I have suspicions about my EGR valve. I have also thought of making a block off plate like Stampy suggests he wants to do. Before I continue with more EGR thoughts I would like to ask you experienced board members: should I start a new thread titled ‘EGR’? If I go on with the EGR stuff here seems like I may be hijacking this thread. If I were to start a new thread where is the best spot to put it…here under Problems & Fixes or MK1 '85-'88 Specifics?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:51 am 
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I ran about a dozen searches for egr and EGR with various search settings and in two different forums. If I add valve then the returns are just overwhelming. It seems to me as a new contributor on this board that there are countless gems of information buried in long posts. This leads me to think that it would be a good thing to start a new topic more often. As I post and search more it will probably become apparent how to treat this thought but I put it out here because at the moment I’m not certain how to proceed.


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 Post subject: EGR Valve
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:35 pm 
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My EGR valve failed aqqus test in two places. It leaked water into the exhaust side and out the bottom of the case.
Now I need to find a new one.

Holy Cow! RockAuto.com wants $175 for one of these :!: Where did some of you get yours at :idea:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:05 am 
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I got a quote from Napa for $135 last week. Sounds like I better grab it!


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 Post subject: Updates
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:53 pm 
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I tried blocking off the EGR valve with some aluminum from the side of a beer can and putting a film of Form A Gasket on it. There was no change in the way the engine ran.

This was something interesting I tried next. Unlike the last post I noticed that if I slowly closed the choke the engine speed would increase. So I started adjusting the choke until I could get some crossovers going on the O2 sensor. TO do this I had to disable the choke piston in order to get the choke to shut enough. I thought I was doing good untill I realized I was coming up on the Idle up cam and was unable to lower my engine RPMs under 1800 RPM. Also, with the choke this far closed the continuous hissing noise from inside my carburetor went to a slurping sound now. The only good that came of this was that my O2 sensor was fluxuating between 100mV and 900mV for the first time.

Immediatly after shutting the engine off I took out an infrared temp gun and starting getting temperatures on different parts of the engine. I got 153dg on the head and no more than 140dg on the water pump and the thermostat housing.

Aside from unplugging the brake booster, checking the ignition system and buying another thermostat, I don't know what I need to do in order to cure this lean condition. :huh:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:21 am 
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Have you checked your plugs? Take pics of plugs and post.

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 Post subject: Intake Manifold
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:57 pm 
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I took these pictures today after removing the carburetor. Holding the choke shut seemed to make the engine run better and get good readings on the O2 sensor in the previous post.

Here is an interesting result. That is gasoline puddling in my intake manifold in this first picture.

Image

Image


This engine likes to run with gasoline puddling in the intake manifold. :huh:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:08 am 
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Have you checked to see if its the right carb? Your sammy was hacked up when you got it. Maybe some one put the wrong carb on it. I read some where that there were a couple different sizes/calibrations of that carb. There is a sammy in my local junkyard I can check on the carb if you want.

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1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed convertible "sportie"


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:52 pm 
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I'm going to try and get my hands on a good working carb this weekend and try that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:00 am 
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That would be a good plan. rule it in or out of the equation.

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1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed convertible "sportie"


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:30 pm 
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As an update, I am still trying to find a reasonably priced carburetor. In the meantime I took my intake manifold off and plugged the intake runners and filled it with water to see if any leaks would show. I found none so far.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:14 pm 
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I sent my carburetor to a specialty shop. After a big bill I found out my slow circuit was indeed clogged. The Samurai idles nicely for the first time.

Now I have some new issues to get it ready for smog. My used MCS is no longer working. With my dwell meter all I get is a constant 0% duty cycle. My O2 sensor is indicating rich at .75 volts. I can play with the idle mixture screw and start getting crossovers but when I begin to open the throttle I get .6 to .8 volts at the O2 sensor wire.

I switched my "Sensor" light on and it stays on continously and then flashes once if you rev up to 2000 Rpm and let off the throttle. Then In order to get the "Sensor" light off I have to switch it again under the dash. I am assuming the feedback system is functional.

I began doing pinout tests at the PCM harness like the service manual recommends and noticed my WOT micro switch is not reading correctly.


In all, this engine is very drivable. However I have seen 3 issues that are stopping me here.
1. MCS signal is full rich
2. WOT micro switch is not functioning
3. Idle up is not working (haven't looked into it yet.)

Any input is greatly appreciated.

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