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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Hi guys, I have a 1994 Swift GT, 1.3 DOHC. Great car is my daily driver, a week ago the timing belt broke!!!
No big deal!!! right, well I got a new one and new tensioner, but when I got it installed and the engine turns the belt goes off!!! (away from the engine)
I already try different tensions and still the same result.
If I install the outer pulley (crankshaft) the belt will stay on but like 1/4 of it will be out on top (camshafts)
Ahhm there is a humming sound comming from somewhere but I can't figure where is comming from.
Thanks in advance.
Any suggestion is greatly appreciated.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:33 am 
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What exactly... did you do when replacing the timing belt?

tell us step by step....

this may need some supporting pics......

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:28 am 
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DOHC + timing belt breaking = bent valve most of the time.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:54 pm 
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Ok, First of all thanks for the feedback.
Well, first I took out all the covers, air filter housing, alternator/water pump belt and water pump pulley, a/c belt.
Then I took out the outer pulley from the crankshaft, then the old timing belt tensioner.
Based on some reserch online I alinged the two camshaft pulleys with the marks on the valve cover, letter I for the intake camshaft(the one on the left close to the firewall), letter E for the exaust camshaft(the one on the right close to the front of the car)
Then I got the crankshaft alinged with the mark on the oil pump. Making sure the first cylinder was on TDC.
Put the lower cover back with the outer pulley to move the time back to 6 degrees BTDC.
Took all that out and slowly started installing the timing belt with the tensioner on it. making sure the pulleys don't move. (it took me a while)
Placed the belt on the middle, tensioned the belt and turned the engine by hand.
slowly as I turn the engine the belt started moving out, towards the air filter housing sits. until it comes off.
I put it back, and I tried different tensions on the belt having the same thing happen (belt off)
Then I tried one last time also installing the outer pulley (the one that drives the water pump/alternator, a/c belts) and the turn the engine by hand.
The belt also moves out BUT it does not come out. then Seen this I tried to start the engine and wala the engine runs.
There is a humming noise coming from somewhere down in there, not sure if there is a bearing going out, water pump maybe? (only has about 50k miles on it, maybe less)
A friend told me to do a pressure test. dry and then wet. adding oil to the lowest cylinder.

So I got the following pressures
Cyl 1 2 3 4
Dry 195 120 210 200
Wet 200 210 210 205

The engine runs Ok no idle problems.
It has a light knocking sound, and from time to time it kind of whistles.

I honestly don't know what to check for at this point.
This is my daily driver and I REALLY need it. It has been a very reliable car, GREAT on gas and fun to drive.

Thanks for your help.
Pictures at next post. (it says file is too big)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:03 pm 
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Picture 1


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:04 pm 
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crisjacof wrote:
Picture 1

Picture 2


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:04 pm 
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crisjacof wrote:
crisjacof wrote:
Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:05 pm 
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crisjacof wrote:
crisjacof wrote:
crisjacof wrote:
Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3

Picture 4


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:10 pm 
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to set the static timing you set both the top and bottom pulleys to their corresponding marks and then install the timing belt. that sets the valve timing. don't dial 6 degrees off the crank. set all the timing gears on their marks.

after you have the static timing set, you adjust the ignition timing by illuminating the notch on the accessory pulley while watching it's position against the timing scale on the belt cover as you turn the distributor in it's housing. be sure to install a jumper in the proper position on the diagnostics plug to lock the ecu to base timing (no ignition mapping.)

i think you got off track when you dialed out 6* of static timing from the crank gear. i think you may have still been within the safe operating area of the cams, though. you probably dodged a bullet there. that engine is an interference type and if you get the valve timing off you can crash a piston into a valve and bend the bejeezus out of stuff.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:14 pm 
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from looking at your pics it appears that the idler pulley is out of square. haul that down and make sure that the little bent tang on the lever arm is seated into the receiving hole on the back of the idler. something has that idler cocked and it's skewing the belt off the cam pulleys.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:18 pm 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
to set the static timing you set both the top and bottom pulleys to their corresponding marks and then install the timing belt. that sets the valve timing. don't dial 6 degrees off the crank. set all the timing gears on their marks.

after you have the static timing set, you adjust the ignition timing by illuminating the notch on the accessory pulley while watching it's position against the timing scale on the belt cover as you turn the distributor in it's housing. be sure to install a jumper in the proper position on the diagnostics plug to lock the ecu to base timing (no ignition mapping.)

i think you got off track when you dialed out 6* of static timing from the crank gear. i think you may have still been within the safe operating area of the cams, though. you probably dodged a bullet there. that engine is an interference type and if you get the valve timing off you can crash a piston into a valve and bend the bejeezus out of stuff.



Ok thanks I'll do that over the weekend.
Do you think that should take care of the belt coming out?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:20 pm 
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read my last post above. ^^^

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:25 pm 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
from looking at your pics it appears that the idler pulley is out of square. haul that down and make sure that the little bent tang on the lever arm is seated into the receiving hole on the back of the idler. something has that idler cocked and it's skewing the belt off the cam pulleys.


I see, I thought about that before, i double checked that, the little thin piece of metal that adjust the tension of the timing belt. I make sure it was sitting perfectly.
More info' I replaced the water pump while back (about 50k miles) is there an option that the water pump is cricked (not sitting square) and the idler pulley is transfering that to the timing belt?
I remember that when I installed the water pump it came with gasket and sealant.
Is all that needed?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:31 pm 
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that's a possibility. the water pump housing might not be square and throwing the idler off.

i used to take care of big conveyor belts and i have a pretty good handle on how to tune a 100 foot long 5 foot wide belt so it runs straight. the crank and the camshafts are line bored to make sure that they are square. the only thing left that would skew the belt is the idler pulley.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:53 pm 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
that's a possibility. the water pump housing might not be square and throwing the idler off.

i used to take care of big conveyor belts and i have a pretty good handle on how to tune a 100 foot long 5 foot wide belt so it runs straight. the crank and the camshafts are line bored to make sure that they are square. the only thing left that would skew the belt is the idler pulley.





wow those are huge belts.
I'll get a new water pump.
do I need to put the gasket and sealant (rtv, silicone)?
Thanks for the advice.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:47 pm 
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On the toyota 3sgte this is pretty common when the washer behind the tensioner pulley is forgotten.


Having never had a dohc g13 apart I dont know if there is a washer back there.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:01 am 
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This happens with my engine as well, so much so that I thought it was normal and that the crank pulley needed to be installed to prevent the belt running off. Are you guys sure this is not normal?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:48 pm 
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he tried it with the pulley on too. it still walks off the cam gears. that is NOT normal.


ive started cars without the crank pulley and the belt doesnt move. if its walking off there is an issue.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:11 pm 
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vr4, the g13 has the same parts compliment and arrangement as any of the g family engines except for belt length and 2 separate cam gears. there's no washer behind the idler pulley. it gets a bolt through the middle of the idler assembly that also serves as the pivot for the tensioning adjuster.

on the rear of the idler pulley assembly there is a hole cast into what serves as the hub and center bearing race and that hole accepts 90* tang on the tensioning adjuster. it's what controls the pivot angle of the idler's hub.

if the machined face of the water pump isn't flat and parallel to the crank and cam gears, it can really throw a skew angle on the belt. the belt will get pulled back in line as it feeds the crank and the tension idler will feed it off the intake cam gear.

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My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Checking in.
Anyone notice something wrong here:
Image
You really are interested in getting help, looking at the pictures you've posted and thanks for that.
A lot of people haven't added that simple tool to their arsenal.

That #4 picture above, which I've reposted makes me wonder how you put that thing back together, and if you don't have a piece reversed.
Take a look at these pieces:
Image
and the part circled in red.
I'm wondering if you've got that reversed.
In the picture I've posted, it has a bit of a flare (not visible) which goes around the oil pump.
Think of it as an upside down tea saucer with a hole in it.
Thus, there's a bit of space between that washer and the concrete below, corresponding to the part on the oil pump. The part facing you in the picture is what faces the main crank gear, and you can see how it has been scored a bit by that gear.
Did you reverse yours when you put it back on? (common mistake for a first timer)


Also, this might be a waste of time, but if you are showing 120 for cylinder #2, see the post above from top down @-40. If he is right, it is time to pull the head and go through the engine.
It will run with 120 compression, but won't be the same, and you can wreck a beautiful piece of machinery.

Your friend told you to do a wet and dry compression test, but with these numbers:
Dry 195 120 210 200
Wet ... 210 ... ...
You'll be looking at a set of rings in #2, for my money.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Hi guys,
Well, I made sure I put the part on the red circle was the right way, I did notice the marks from the timing belt so I installed that way. Just as you said.
I'm concerned about the pressure on cylinder 2. But just to double check I'll do a retest on saturday.
Today I pick up the new water pump. from O'reilly Auto Parts. (new one, not remanufactured)
I'll try this one to see if that takes care of the problem.
Do you guys know what is the torque for the water pump bolts? or where can I found this info?
Thanks for all your feedback.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:59 pm 
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I don't think you rwp is the problem. t3ragtop i think has pointed out your problem.

Remember there are 2 bolts that you have to tighten for the tensioner. And I suspect as he does that the 12mm one is loose. Also it looks like the triangular piece that sits behind it is reversed. As in the side that is facing out should be facing it. The little tab he spoke of should be sitting in a little hole on the back of the tensioner pulley and not into the casting cutout of the wp.

Recheck this before you go swapping out a wp. You might save yourself some work. As for the compression # in 2 cylinder I would check it after the engine has run for a little bit. It could be low from fuel washing down the cylinder walls from cranking the engine. If it stays low then you definatly have an engine issue to deal with.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:55 pm 
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TheINCRide wrote:
I don't think you rwp is the problem. t3ragtop i think has pointed out your problem.

Remember there are 2 bolts that you have to tighten for the tensioner. And I suspect as he does that the 12mm one is loose. Also it looks like the triangular piece that sits behind it is reversed. As in the side that is facing out should be facing it. The little tab he spoke of should be sitting in a little hole on the back of the tensioner pulley and not into the casting cutout of the wp.

Recheck this before you go swapping out a wp. You might save yourself some work. As for the compression # in 2 cylinder I would check it after the engine has run for a little bit. It could be low from fuel washing down the cylinder walls from cranking the engine. If it stays low then you definatly have an engine issue to deal with.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:30 pm 
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According to this picture
Image
and this diagram
Image
his #2 tensioner plate is facing the correct direction.
Whether the 'nib' is inserted into the hole behind the tensioner?...only he would know.
There may be something behind the tensioner and plate keeping it from sitting flush, as t3 ragtop is saying.

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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