TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:54 pm

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 12:10 pm
Posts: 9
Location: denver, colorado
i need help in helping to determine the severity of this crack that I spotted between the adjoining walls on cylinder 2 and 3 on this 1998 4cyl metro motor.
The motor was re/built in 2011, everything was completely milled at the reputable machine shop, both block and head, all surfaces redone. The bore was done to .03 over/under, the crank polished and all bearings replaced, everything was done properly, as this motor rebuild, was probably assembled better than the original product from the factory..
The head was Has a 3tech cam in it, stainless exhaust valves, and is mated to a gti exhaust manifold and the matching exhaust.
I only put 26k on this motor in the last 4 years. And just recently, I started to notice the coolant smell, and then the oily front of the motor, from around the valve cover and behind the exhaust manifold (even though I'd changed the valve cover gasket). And then very shortly after, I got a p304 code for a misfire in cylinder number 3, and a subsequent compromised oil and coolant milkshake. I immediate put the car on hold.
I tore the motor back down, and noticed the head gasket, which was a BS ebay, chinese made, part of the rebuild kit that I didn't really pay too much attention to, was just beat to hell and corroded and falling apart.
The gasket material, the portion that covers the water passages around the cylinders, was falling apart so bad, the gasket material had disintegrated and crumbled/collapsed sections and collapsed into the water passages. While the gasket was generally in one piece, there were holes that were enlarged, and there sections around the cylinders that had chunks of it that were separating from the gasket when I removed it. It was a disgusting mess.
See the initial video, and you'll see what I mean:

http://youtu.be/n-MhlNGHvnw

(or if this doesn't load right, copy that link in another window and see if that works, or try this other one.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-MhlNGHvnw&feature=youtu.be

So I cleaned up the matching surfaces, cleaned out all the crumbled gasket debris that fell in the water passages, and the brillowed down the top of block and got bare metal again. I then noticed something that immediately stood out and caused me to rethink What just happened to the motor. and I saw a crack that could not be ignored. :shock:
See the subsequent video of what I discovered next:

http://youtu.be/QgvLHbxF2X4

(if this doesn't work, try copying it into another window) or try this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgvLHbxF2X4&feature=youtu.be

I then took 4 closer up pics of the extent of this crack. Note, the crack does NOT permeate into the adjacent cylinder walls. it appears the crack is only as wide as the sealing ring-portion of the gasket - as depicted with the clear marks around the top of the cylinder. However I do not know how deep the crack goes down in between that thin wall separating the cylinders, and if it goes down to the other side of the bottom of the block into the oil pan area. This is the part that's concerning me.. See the images below.

Image

Image

Image

Image

*At this point, I'm trying to determine whether if this crack is substantial to actually cause the head gasket to break open, and spew the coolant into the cylinder 3 OR if the gasket was so bad/cheap quality that it just fell apart, and that this potential crack isn't really going to affect any spillage/leakage into the cylinders?

For those who know this block and have spent alot of time, if this crack indeed does not or has not actually spread into the combustion chamber, but indeed goes deep enough throughout and down completely to the bottom of the cylinders and to the base of the cylinders and to the bottom of the block and on the otherside of where the crank shaft and oil well area, would this create a pressure problem that would leak into the cylinders 2 and 3 and eventually cause the cylinders to lose compression or create some kind of blow-by and ultimately start forcing coolant leaking into the cylinders?

I'm trying to imagine the most likely outcome IF I were to leave this as-is, and spray down the newer head gasket with copper spray (of which I didn't use last time) OR use a sealant like Hylomar (very minimally and strategically spread in the most precarious areas around the cylinders and oil passages) and slap this back together and see how long it takes, if at all, until the coolant compromises the oil again or until I loose compression in some other way....
:?
Let me know what you think I should do, or what I can get away with for now, and might be the outcome if I put the motor back together.
Thanks!

_________________
95' geo metro (auto), with 98' 16v motor, with a more a aggressive cam, 45mm throttle body, 1.6 L exhaust man. and 2" exhaust.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:23 pm 
Offline
@ssclown

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:58 am
Posts: 756
Location: not here
I don't have much experience with that sort of thing but my wild guess would be you can either weld up the crack or find another block.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: Alberta, Canada
Your odds aren't great of having success, but if you are comfortable with giving it a shot, you could try a fel pro or Oem head gasket and see what happens. Such a shame to have this happen to a fresh engine. You will only be out perhaps $100 and your time if you try a gasket, but of course will also land up with a bit of an unknown reliability issue (can you completely trust the car even if it seems fine?).
If you didn't have clouds of antifreeze steam/smoke, my concern with your symptoms would be the antifreeze in the oil. Typically with head gasket failures around the fire ring when the symptom is internal coolant loss, the oil rarely gets the milkshake look, because most of the antifreeze is burned up, rather than leaking down into the oil. A bit goes down when it sits for a while, like overnight, but I don't usually see the milkshake unless it's really bad, or ignored for ages.
I would worry that the crack goes all the way down that cylinder sleeve and drips antifreeze into the oil at the bottom.
I've been there on the cheap gaskets, first with eristic brand from Cns distributor on eBay, then more recently with dnj brand off of rock auto. Eristic failed on everything, the dnj has been problematic on Hondas, even the MLS ones fail although they look identical to Oem ones. Fel pro replacement gasket have been zero failures in each case that I replaced a cheap head gasket (and other engine gaskets as well). Fel pro is worth the money, or Oem.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 344
Location: vancouver island, canada
i have had nothing but bad luck with felpro. it lasted me about 5000 km and blew hard. put a dnj in 40,000 km ago no problems what so ever. and as a partsman i have seen lots of problems with felpro. i think they are shit.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:20 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6343
Location: Emerald city Washington
redneck racing wrote:
i have had nothing but bad luck with felpro. it lasted me about 5000 km and blew hard. put a dnj in 40,000 km ago no problems what so ever. and as a partsman i have seen lots of problems with felpro. i think they are shit.

.
yes Felpro will let you down... just as the cheep graphite gasket.!
The secret to seccess
is to make sure the both surface are clean and dry.!
I can't stress this enough as a rule alot of builder want to oil the bolts before install (not good because leak onto head surface)
if you need some type of lube on headbolt very little neverseaze
also to retorq after a very short time
I hit it twice as a rule after 800 miles


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:55 pm
Posts: 1257
Location: So. Calif
Fire rings seal on the cylinder sleeves. Your sleeves are intact. There is no path for the antifreeze to get to the cylinder nor combustion gases the other way.

Clean it up, put on a new gasket DRY, bolt it all back together, drive and enjoy your car.

Here's my crack. Sleeve is fine, crack goes right to the coolant passage. Shorter path than your crack for sure.
New Felpro headgasket, reused head bolts, put it all together, been driving it 24K miles now (100 miles/day). No problems.

Image

Full thread here http://geometroforum.com/topic/5354843/1/
(note I'm not on GMF anymore)

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


Last edited by JellyBeanDriver on Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: Alberta, Canada
Hundreds of g10&g13's done with fel pro head gaskets, never a problem. Further from that, I'd say I do 25-50 per year at my shop on various other engine with the same success rate. Three with dnj this year failed, replaced with fel pro and no problem. Fel pro is shit is a pretty big statement, and simply incorrect. There are other brands that are as good, but fel pro consistently works well. From gm 3100&3400 v6's to Honda d15, d16&17, to Chrysler 2.0 neons and of course the infamous cavalier 2.2's, done a lot of all of them over the years and fel pro works.
Jellybean driver, as I stated in my post, the concern with this isn't necessarily with antifreeze getting into the combustion chamber, it's antifreeze making its way into the oil if it can follow the crack straight down and drip into oil pan. I sure think it would be ok, but probably hard to know without trying it.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:55 pm
Posts: 1257
Location: So. Calif
codyb76 wrote:
Jellybean driver, as I stated in my post, the concern with this isn't necessarily with antifreeze getting into the combustion chamber, it's antifreeze making its way into the oil if it can follow the crack straight down and drip into oil pan. I sure think it would be ok, but probably hard to know without trying it.


There's no path for it to get there. There's so much metal in the way. The cylinder head sealing surface is flat - it doesn't have a water port in that position.

Edit: just looked at a photo of a Metro head gasket. The distance from a coolant passage to one of the passages that going into the crankcase looks shorter than what path his coolant would have to take to reach that crack.

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 344
Location: vancouver island, canada
codyb76 wrote:
Hundreds of g1. g13's done with fel pro head gaskets, never a problem. Further from that, I'd say I do 25-50 per year at my shop on various other engine with the same success rate. Three with dnj this year failed, replaced with fel pro and no problem. Fel pro is shit is a pretty big statement, and simply incorrect. There are other brands that are as good, but fel pro consistently works well. From gm 3100&3400 v6's to Honda d15, d16&17, to Chrysler 2.0 neons and of course the infamous cavalier 2.2's, done a lot of all of them over the years and fel pro works.
Jellybean driver, as I stated in my post, the concern with this isn't necessarily with antifreeze getting into the combustion chamber, it's antifreeze making its way into the oil if it can follow the crack straight down and drip into oil pan. I sure think it would be ok, but probably hard to know without trying it.



Not to get into a pissing match but I have sold more head gaskest in a year then im sure you have ever changed. And thy have all been felpro. And because of the problems I have seen I refuse to use them. Remember. Very time you do a head gasket. Someone like me sells it to you. And everybody else. I partsman know more about the parts you use then any mechanic

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 776
Location: Greer,South Carolina USA
Unless your parts man is retired Ase Master Tech!

_________________
Cars and Harleys


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 12:10 pm
Posts: 9
Location: denver, colorado
JellyBeanDriver wrote:
Fire rings seal on the cylinder sleeves. Your sleeves are intact. There is no path for the antifreeze to get to the cylinder nor combustion gases the other way.

Clean it up, put on a new gasket DRY, bolt it all back together, drive and enjoy your car.

Here's my crack. Sleeve is fine, crack goes right to the coolant passage. Shorter path than your crack for sure.
New Felpro headgasket, reused head bolts, put it all together, been driving it 24K miles now (100 miles/day). No problems.

Image

Full thread here http://geometroforum.com/topic/5354843/1/
(note I'm not on GMF anymore)

_________________
95' geo metro (auto), with 98' 16v motor, with a more a aggressive cam, 45mm throttle body, 1.6 L exhaust man. and 2" exhaust.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 12:10 pm
Posts: 9
Location: denver, colorado
JellyBeanDriver wrote:
Fire rings seal on the cylinder sleeves. Your sleeves are intact. There is no path for the antifreeze to get to the cylinder nor combustion gases the other way.

Clean it up, put on a new gasket DRY, bolt it all back together, drive and enjoy your car.

Here's my crack. Sleeve is fine, crack goes right to the coolant passage. Shorter path than your crack for sure.
New Felpro headgasket, reused head bolts, put it all together, been driving it 24K miles now (100 miles/day). No problems.

Image

Full thread here http://geometroforum.com/topic/5354843/1/
(note I'm not on GMF anymore)



Well after looking at yours, I feel somewhat more confident about heading the advice of using a felpro and bolting it back up. I'm going to get that done this weekend and will record and post more about the outcome and the overall result.
Thanks for the optimism. Worst case scenario, I'm back to where I started. Atleast the head is still nice and tight, and clean condition.
MORE TO COME!

_________________
95' geo metro (auto), with 98' 16v motor, with a more a aggressive cam, 45mm throttle body, 1.6 L exhaust man. and 2" exhaust.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: Alberta, Canada
I agree with jellybean driver and think you have a pretty good chance of success. Worst case scenario, I don't think you will be left stranded, you will just notice either milky oil starting to happen, or coolant loss without a leak. I'm sure you'll be watching vital signs closely so will catch it right away. Only thing to remember is not to be to paranoid, sometimes after the milky oil issue, it will leave a bit of that goo here and there in the engine, so a tinge might show up in the oil until things clean up everywhere in there.
Best of luck, post results, I'd be doing the same thing, hope it works perfectly!

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group