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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:07 pm
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego
My Metro has been exhibiting the smoking at startup issue for a while and I had some time on my hands recently so I decided to look into pulling the head and replacing the valve stem seals. However while I was at it I thought about checking compression and was surprised at how low the compression was on all the cylinders although one is significantly worse than the other. It seems to drive okay but if the compression has been going down over the years I may not have noticed plus I don't really drive it much anymore.

Current mileage is about 149K.

The results I got on a cold engine 1 - 100PSI, 2 - 30 PSI, 3 - 100PSI, 4 - 100PSI

Hot 1 - 100PSI, 2 - 70PSI, 3 - 105PSI, 4 - 115PSI

After adding some oil

1- 130PSI, 2- 130PSI, 3 - 130PSI, 4 - 145 PSI

2 took more cranks to get upto 130PSI after adding oil compared to the other cylinders.

I'm guessing I need new piston rings on all the cylinders plus probably looking at a burnt or malfunctioning valve on 2. First time taking this engine apart so any other suggestions would be useful.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
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Location: Alberta, Canada
A leakdown test will confirm where that cylinder is leaking. Most likely an exhaust valve isn't sealing anymore. If you go ahead with a rebuild and land up reusing the current pistons, make sure you get the right rings. For some reason it's tricky to find them for the 98-01 1.3 16v's. I tried three different sets before I gave up once, but I pretty sure there is a brand that does make them. They are very expensive from the dealer.

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1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:07 pm
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Location: San Diego
codyb76 wrote:
The smoke at startup is very common on this particular Suzuki engine. Caused by the valve stem seals on the exhaust side. The oil pools up there and leaks down when it sits. Annoying but generally harmless, and most seem to use nearly zero oil between changes despite this in my experience.
I bet that engine runs smooth and has good power. If that's the case I would think it would be a waste of time and money to tear into it for the sole reason of wanting to see a higher number on the compression guage. Also you stated that you don't drive it anymore, so would you see a return on your investment if you rebuilt it?
In a perfect world your numbers would be higher, I just know I've seen a lot of these with lower than spec compression numbers do the job needed for many years, often until the car gets parked. Now if the engine has oil burning issues or other problems then a rebuild might make sense. To get new compression numbers you will need to bore it out with new pistons as well as a head rebuild. It can be quite hard to find rings that f


Yes you are correct in that the smoking at startup is a minor issue and results in a small amount of oil consumption between oil changes but never to a point of needing to add oil. Yes it seems to run fine - I was just concerned at the abnormally low compression.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:59 pm 
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Location: San Diego
codyb76 wrote:
A leakdown test will confirm where that cylinder is leaking. Most likely an exhaust valve isn't sealing anymore. If you go ahead with a rebuild and land up reusing the current pistons, make sure you get the right rings. For some reason it's tricky to find them for the 98-01 1.3 16v's. I tried three different sets before I gave up once, but I pretty sure there is a brand that does make them. They are very expensive from the dealer.


Good suggestion about the leakdown test. btw your earlier post seems to have disappeared.

I was not planning to buy any rings until I had measured the bore diameter. According to my search on the net Sealed Power E776KC rings are supposed to fit this engine.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:35 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Sorry, I went way off on my first post then deleted. I didn't catch the 30psi cold on cyl 2. That long rambling was just pertaining to not taking apar a good running engine strictly because the compression is down a bit on all holes but fairly even. I've seen old 3cyls with 125psi across that work well for ages, although technically the numbers are down from what they should be.
Does your engine run rough? The compression really jumps up once it's been ran. I used to replace the valve stem seals without removing the head. It was tedious but not that hard. If you don't use it a lot and it generally runs ok but the smoke annoys you I'd do them without removing head and just keep in driving it

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:07 pm
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Location: San Diego
codyb76 wrote:
Sorry, I went way off on my first post then deleted. I didn't catch the 30psi cold on cyl 2. That long rambling was just pertaining to not taking apar a good running engine strictly because the compression is down a bit on all holes but fairly even. I've seen old 3cyls with 125psi across that work well for ages, although technically the numbers are down from what they should be.
Does your engine run rough? The compression really jumps up once it's been ran. I used to replace the valve stem seals without removing the head. It was tedious but not that hard. If you don't use it a lot and it generally runs ok but the smoke annoys you I'd do them without removing head and just keep in driving it


Can't say I've noticed it running rough but It seemed like the Metro always ran a bit rough even when I got it in 01. It could have been getting worse over the years of course since I cannot compare to when it was much newer. But I don't notice a difference between hot and cold. Now given that the compression even on the low cylinder went up to 130 PSI with oil added I'm inclined to think that may be a case of rings with excessive leakage compared to the others rather than a valve issue. I've recently also noticed some oil in the air intake and on more than one occasion recently I've found the oil dipstick pushed up - I'm guessing possibly due to excess gases in the crankcase possibly due to blowby?

Yes I thought about doing the seals without removing the head but somewhere on another post i recall someone posting that they found it easier to remove the head and also by doing that you get a chance to look and see how things are


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
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Location: Alberta, Canada
No way it's easier, but you could send the head out at that point to have a proper rebuild. Basically in your case if you pull the head you will be going the whole way I suspect. That engine should run very smooth, the 4cyl suzukis are all quite smooth runners when healthy.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:35 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:07 pm
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego
codyb76 wrote:
No way it's easier, but you could send the head out at that point to have a proper rebuild. Basically in your case if you pull the head you will be going the whole way I suspect. That engine should run very smooth, the 4cyl suzukis are all quite smooth runners when healthy.


Yes that's what I suspect as well. Out of interest how did you keep the valves from dropping into the cylinder when changing the seals - did you use compressed air?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1370
Location: Alberta, Canada
Top secret...
I use a piece of rope, fed it in, roll crank til you feel the rope squeezing a bit and away you go. The air fitting can work but it sure doesn't hold the valves with any conviction so i never
Iked it.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:07 pm
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego
Yes I've heard of the rope trick as well - not sure which one worked better. it does sound like the rope technique is better in terms of keeping the valve still while re-installing. Thanks for the feedback.

Do you need any special tools for pulling the seals. I got the seal kit and it has what looks like a couple of straws which I think is for assembly. I'm assuming you can pull the old seals off with pliers but the FSM shows a special Kent-Moore tool for doing this. It is available on ebay if I really need it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
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Location: Alberta, Canada
I never needed a special tool. Just pry them off and pop them on. The straw things are for sliding them over the valve but I never found them to catch or have any problem doing that without the sleeve on.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:07 pm
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego
Okay thanks for all the insight. I guess I will hold off on pulling the head until such time as more serious symptoms develop which would warrant puling the head and simply replace the seals for now.


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