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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:42 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Vancouver WA
I recently got an 87 turbo 3cyl sprint from a friend. It ran ok but is not anything amazing, so i started checking out the tune up parts. everything looked good save for I saw no advanve with the timing light as I reved the car. The centrifigul is not working. I pulled the distributor and the guts for the mechanical advance mechanism is hammered. All the bearings fell out of the breaker plate, the weights have ground a hole in the body, the springs are toast ect. I looked around a bit and a new dist is fairly expensive and I definately do not think this one would be a suitable core. I can howecer tig the plates up and use it as a fixed advance unit. So as it will cost me the same to MS the car as fix the distributor i'm going that route.


I have a good handle on MS but am looking for a few sprint specifics.
I'm 99.9% sure the dist pickup is a standard VR pickup. Correct?
What wire is the positve on the pickup?
What are the resistor values for the suzuki coolant temp sensor?

I have searched alot, but everything on this sight is all 404. the turbo manuals are all 404'd as well.
Also my all-data info does not show this dist that i have. what i have is the 3 wire distributor with a weatherpack connector on it. The middle pin is a case ground for the dist the out 2 go to the pickup. The all data info I have all shows electronicaly controlled timing, not mechanical.
Its a mechanical and vacume dist with 2 nipples on the can.
It looks exactly like this one http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=54566

From what i gather the common way to run MS is with a single bank of all 3 injectors.
Is the injector on the top of the intake manifold a cold start injector?

Any and all help is appreciated.

Some of my past and sorta currant megasquirt projects
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My 69 camaro. its getting the lq9 in the foreground with a 80mm gt45 variant turbo. I'm going to be running megasquirt in waste spark and batch fire with idle and boost control, along with water meth. goal is 600rwhp.

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this was my 89 turbo van. ran MS2 boost control, anti lag, 2 step, water methenol ect. used a gt3076 BB turbo at 27PSI. ran really wel and was super reliable. Its goofy, but usefull as hell.

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turbo volvo on ms2 with a hx34 turbo. 8v head, built motor. 375ish rwhp

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one of my many galant vr4's thi one on a 3076 made 400awhp with MS2 and strait pump gas. its got 272 cams, 2.4 shortblock, big front mount ect.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
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Location: columbus, ohio
my first ms turbo3 attempt required me to spoof a 6 cylinder tune as 3 cylinder operation is very limited on the ms2extra firmware.

i deleted the distributor and ran a 3 channel ignition using outboard ignitors from the suzuki g13b dohc 16 valve system and 3 cop units from a ford v8. the ms was set up for batch fire and initially i used the typical crank mounted 36-1 trigger wheel and v/r sensor.

i ran into problems with the v/r sensor as it acts like a generator and would produce a signal at idle that was pretty much low enough to be "in the mud" while producing a nearly 70 volt amplitude signal at 6000 rpm. the high amplitude produced false triggers and resets that were very dangerous for a boosted application. i attribute that to the failure of my friend's 'squirted turbo3 - it threw a rod through the block and brought his project to an end.

i started researching this timing failure and came up with several things. to effectively use a larger set of injectors, 460 cc/min, to get the fueling headroom needed to produce my desired hp output i had to move things to sequential injection. to keep a v/r sensor from generating higher and higher voltages as engine speed increased i switched over to hall effect devices.

i came up with a hall effect gear tooth sensor for the crank and another proximity hall effect for the cam. i maintained the 36-1 trigger wheel on the crank and embedded a neodymium magnet into the cam gear with the hall effect sensor to set the valve timing phase with one pulse per revolution of the cam. i also used a couple of really tiny outboard hall effect signal conditioning boards. those allowed me to depopulate the ms board of all it's signal conditioning components and connect the digital (4.35 v) outputs directly to the ms2 daughter board's processor pins.

i used the jbperf 4 channel board to allow for 3 channels of injection drivers and as throughput for the 3 channels of ignition output to the outboard ignitors. that also allowed me to delete a lot of other ms main board components including the oscillator crystal. removing all those components from the main board allows the ms controller to operate at a much lower temperature as the heat that would normally be dissipated is gone from the enclosure.

that also allowed me to change the ms2extra firmware to sequential injection mode with direct 3 channel ignition retaining the 3 ignitors and 3 cop units. i blanked off the distributor drive port. now i can control the injection with a squirt at the proper valve timing instead of a batch firing arrangement which helps a lot to manage the engine's idle point. another benefit is that sequential injection opened up some previously grayed out tuning applets allowing me to apply trim to individual cylinders. that lets me provide fuel enrichment for the #2 cylinder which generally runs hotter than the 2 outboard cyclinders. overall, fueling is more precise and idle control is way better.

indeed, the simple injector mounted on the intake manifold is a cold start injector. on some of my turbo3 engines i used that injector to provide extra fuel at wot. on my current turbo3 engines using ms2extra management, i have removed the cold start injector and installed a blanking plate. you do not need the cold start fuel enrichment injector with the ms controls. the simple 2 wire idle speed solenoid driven by the basic onboard idle circuit works fine along with the basic cold start fuel enrichment provided with the tuning software. i installed a small hose nipple in the blanking plate and use that as a port from which a better average of manifold boost/ vacuum can be read. i use a hose from that port to a block type manifold to distribute the same boost/ vacuum signal for the ms2's onboard map, my vaccum assist on the bov, and my afr gauge. using the manifolded single point port makes all my instrumentation operate off of the same signal as a standard.

i use tuner studio with the $40 licensing to open up the logging and auto-tune functions.

so, i recommend designing initially to run sequential injection, hall effect sensors with outboard signal conditioning, and a distributorless ignition.

if you are hell bent on using the distributor, i highly recommend our member fainya as a source for rebuilding your distributor. he has a fully complemented machine shop and can perform all of the service required to bring back your worn out distributor. and his service is really affordable.

i documented a lot of my megasquirt/ turbo3 stuff in my blue monster thread. it's a lot to read but.....

good luck with your project. :wink:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:42 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Vancouver WA
Did you ever try to condition the factory vr circuit?
I was thinking of useing a 4 pin hei module and useing its output to run the MS.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:42 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Vancouver WA
So I tried a 4 prong hei as my signal conditioner on a spare MS2 box using the latest release firmware and as fast as my drill will turn the dist on the bench I get a clean input signal. So I'm giving this a shot. We will see how it goes. My drill turns 3k on high. so as that is dist rpm that is equal to 6k crank. It would be nice if this works well as it will be a better alternative to finding and reconditioning 30 year old junk.

I will post as i go. My MS stuff that i have on order should be here this weakend.

I read through alot of your post, but I never saw what coolant temp sensor you were useing. Was it the factory swift sensor or did you go GM? If it was the factory sensor, what values did you use for the coolant temp calibration?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Location: columbus, ohio
i have a twincam ms2 that runs off a modified g13ba distributor that i had modified by fainya. he fabricated and installed a vernier knob operated adjuster to control the breaker plate position. the vernier controls replaced the oem vacuum canisters. he also did his standard rebuild to replace worn items and make it look brand new.

that lets me dial in the static timing to a gnat's ass and lock it down. you don't need any mechanical advance, the megasquirt will take care of it.

won't it be hard to run in predictive mode with the relatively low number of trigger pulses per crank revs?

for the clt, the turbo3 engines use an odd thread sensor threaded into the intake manifold. it has the suzuki sensor curve. i found a sensor with those metric threads but with the standard chevy sensor curve. it was a part from a 2009 chevy aveo that i crossed from parts listings.

the megasquirt uses the chevy standard curve as it's default. i used a newer style connector that fit the sensor's plug and everything is in conformance.

on my air intake temp sensor i also choose a suitable sensor with the chevy curve, again, the default for the controller.

you'll have to come up with something on the iat as on the turbo3 it is built into the vaf which i would think you are removing.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:42 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Vancouver WA
Cool thanks alot.
The aveo sensor will help out a bunch.
I'll just use a JY air temp in the IC plumbing before the TB.
The MS should run this thing in either this or next cyl mode with no issues.
I was thinking about going trigger wheel on the crank, but i really can't justify the effort for what i plan to do to this thing.
I will be running the injectors in batch and use dual table and wire the cold start inj to inj 2. It will give me a bit more room.
Between it and water meth I should be able to run the factory injectors and make some power. The turbo is tiny so it won't take much to hit the wall. We will see what drive pressure does. If it turns out to be alot of fun it may get the trigger wheel and a t2 flanged turbo in the future. I have a w11 ball bearing nissan avinier turbo with the 48 hotside that would probably work ok.

Thanx for the info


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
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Location: columbus, ohio
open a project thread and pack it with pics. we love pics! :wink:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
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Location: columbus, ohio
here's my twincam megasquirt system. the small lone sensor is the intake air temp. the distributor is a modified g13ba unit built by fainya.
Image

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
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