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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:28 pm 
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Location: Oregon, USA
Does anyone have any information on the trigger wheel inside the oil pump on 97-98 swifts? I intend to megasquirt a g13BA in samurai and I'm looking for a clean looking way to get the crank signal.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:55 am 
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Location: columbus, ohio
to my knowledge there's no code written for megasquirt for that trigger wheel.

i use a standard 36-1 trigger wheel from a ford aerostar van concentrically mounted to an aluminum 4" underdrive pulley. i read that with a hall effect device gear sensor. works great.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:10 am 
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Location: Oregon, USA
I have found a few post about megasquirt projects for the g13bb using the stock trigger wheel. Some of these post said that it used a 36-2-2-2 trigger wheel, like a Subaru. Looking on rockauto I noticed that the part numbers for the 2001 metro with g13bb has the same oil pump part number as 1997 and 1998 swifts. I've also found reference saying that the 97s have the same trigger wheel as a Vitra. Which would work, but have less resolution.

Any insight Is appreciated.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:43 pm 
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i fired up my tuner studio and checked the setting choices for ignition and it does have a box for 36-2-2-2.

if the g13bb trigger wheel is that you should be good.

my only reservation then would be that my experience with the v/r type sensors used in conjunction with the signal conditioning on the ms board was not good. the variable reluctor acted like a generator. at idle the signal was in the mud and at 6000 rpm the pulses were riding a 70v amplitude. the high voltage level caused frequent ignition count resets and misfires that were dangerous on a high boost engine.

i don't have a pic of the g13bb trigger wheel right at hand but as i recall, there were 2 really big flats on it with teeth on only about half the wheel. i can't see it having the resolution you describe.

Image

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:39 pm 
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Location: Oregon, USA
t3 ragtop wrote:
i fired up my tuner studio and checked the setting choices for ignition and it does have a box for 36-2-2-2.

if the g13bb trigger wheel is that you should be good.

my only reservation then would be that my experience with the v/r type sensors used in conjunction with the signal conditioning on the ms board was not good. the variable reluctor acted like a generator. at idle the signal was in the mud and at 6000 rpm the pulses were riding a 70v amplitude. the high voltage level caused frequent ignition count resets and misfires that were dangerous on a high boost engine.

i don't have a pic of the g13bb trigger wheel right at hand but as i recall, there were 2 really big flats on it with teeth on only about half the wheel. i can't see it having the resolution you describe.

Image



Thanks Ragtop

That much voltage does seem concerning. I'm not planning on a turbo, or even trying to make a lot of power. Suzuki was able to use that wheel for sequential injection and wasted spark, hopefully it would meet my needs. I would like to add fuel injection to my samurai, and megasquirt seems like a fun way to do it. I want to keep it a 1.3, and i'm exploring two options.

Modify a g13ba. This would include adding a trigger wheel, and maybe a cam sensor. preferably somewhere protected. I would also have machine the intake for fuel injections and a throttle body.

OR
finding a 1999-2001 g13bb. I think it has the same motor mounts, so It should bolt right in. But the coolant discharge is the rear. I could use a long radiator hose, or hope I can find a G16 manifold from a rear wheel drive that bolts up.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:08 am 
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on the g13bb they also used a cam position sensor on the back end of the cam, where you would normally find the distributor, to get sequential injection. that's also needed by the megasquirt.

the trick is that the g13bb has a cam with bumps on it that can be read by the cam sensor instead of a slot for the distributor like you find on the other g family engines.

you'll have some things to work out but you can do this. :wink:

the sweet spot for this will be an ms2 ver 3 with msextra firmware and a jbperf 4 channel driver board. you can leave out a bunch of components when you build the controller. you won't need the ignition driver, the injector driver, or most of the standard components on the big main board heat sink. that takes a lot of heat out of the ms box. the jbperf 4 channel driver board set adds a connector for an aux wiring harness for wiring to the injector and ignition drivers. it also lets you do cop ignition or multiple coils.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:45 am 
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Location: Oregon, USA
I had realized I would need the cam signal for sequential, but had not realized the rest of the information. I really like the idea of not installing more components than I need. I’ll probably be asking you more about that if you don’t mind. Other than cost, is there any reason to use MS2 over MS3 w/ the daughter and expander card? I know someone running MS3 so I'd have a little more help there. I more short on hobby time than hobby money.

Nagtrainer, who is on teamswift, has a neat project where he is running a G13BB with micro squirt in semi- sequentially.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:18 pm 
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the ms3 is a very neat controller but it was designed with v8 engines in mind. there's no advantage to using 8 channels when you only have 4 cylinders and you end up paying more for things you won't use. the sd card slot is okay for logging logging data but you still have to use a computer to change anything on the controller so that's just fluff.

the ms2 kit with the jbperf 4 channel board will come in at about half the cost of the ms3 and is a proven platform for the g13 twincam.

the ms2 ver 3 kit will come with all the components, you just don't need to populate the board with all of them when you build it when you use the 4 channel driver board. it doesn't really save you any money but it does save you some time building the main controller board. the ms2 is an ms1 kit with the upgraded processor on a daughter board that plugs into the processor socket. the big difference is that the better processor allows for bigger maps, 16 x 16 instead of the ms1's 12 x 12.

when you load the msextra firmware it allows you to set up for sequential operation which allows better control of the injection process. i found it essential for getting a usable idle out of big injectors that were capable of properly fueling on the big end. batch fire mode ended up being way too fat at idle.

you won't be running boost but you'll find that using the megasquirt lets you tune the engine, something that is harder to do using the oem engine management. one thing to keep in mind is that you'll want the tuner studio software. it's freeware but paying the small licensing fee opens up neat things like fuel trim and auto tune.

another thing to keep in mind is that you'll want to set up with a good afr unit. i like the innovate mx unit which uses a bosch 6 wire wide band o2 sensor and has all of its electronics built into the display gauge. it is on the list for megasquirt so all you have to do is to use the check box for it in the firmware and connect the 0-5 vdc wire from the wide band to the ms2.

the controller, wide band unit, and wiring will run maybe $1000 tops. you'll need a laptop as a supervisory computer to flash your tune .msq files and as a virtual gauge display. i use a little acer 7" netbook running windows 7 ultimate and a solid state hard drive. that whole rig was a couple hundred bucks but is well worth the money to have a dedicated supervisory computer for my megasquirt files. you don't have to leave a computer plugged in to run the megasquirt but i like having 7 additional virtual gauges, the ability to change my tuning files at the push of a few keys, and the logging ability. the auto tune function is really nice because it can change the tuning, correcting gross tuning errors, faster than you can do it manually. after auto tune changes things i can log a short run and then look to see the tuning differences on 3d maps.

for instance, i set up my ignition mapping based on ignition load over an rpm range. i initially gave it 40 degrees of advance for a total ignition load of 80%. after running auto tune the computer took it down to a total of 37 degrees of advance at 6500 rpm which tightened things up. it would have taken a couple of dyno runs for me to get there manually but tuner studio is such a fantastic piece of code that it saved me a couple hundred bucks in dyno charges. :wink:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:53 pm
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Location: Oregon, USA
Holy crap, t3 ragtop. You are wealth of knowledge! If you don't mind, I'm sure I'll be contacting you with questions.


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