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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Location: Durham, UK
Hi,

I'm toying idea of G13B turbo with MS.
For MS to work, we will need to have trigger system and my supplier of kit told me EDIS will be very simple and works well.
So, I came up with idea of G10 single point injection engine. It has Suzuki's own trigger wheel but I wasn't sure if it works or not with MS.

I got 36-1 wheel designed in same size as Suzuki OEM item and the laser cut.
G10 engine has sensor in the oil pump casting pointing upwards so I can use this setup.
I'm hoping to create hybrid oil pump using G10 and internal of G13B as it has more fuel flow.

Anyway, I have started with a cam drive pulley getting ti machine to take a 36-1 trigger wheel.

Image

Then slide over the trigger wheel over it and adjust to suit.

Image

Any comment from experienced MS user will be very much helpful here.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:27 pm 
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atchi,

i always try to keep in mind that there's more than one way to skin a cat. :D

i would recommend against using edis. yes, it easy and works on ford engines, but when i was considering using it all the guys were telling me that it had inherent issues. i ended up using parts of the edis system - the 36-1 trigger wheel and the vr pickup.

there are some really useful modification boards available to use with the ms2 that will get you set up for sequential injection, coil on plug, etc.

this will give you 4 channels of injector drivers and 4 channels of coil drivers. i just populated the board with components to support 3 channels of injection and ran my ignition outputs through the board without using the fet drivers for the coils.
http://jbperf.com/quad_ign_inj/index.html

i used this to get my second trigger from the cam for sequential operation timing. first i had built the circuit from bits and pieces to prove my concept. the i found this guy's little board which cleaned up the circuit and solved some vibration induced failure problems and improved reliability.
http://www.stratifiedauto.com/index.php ... sbgu2n8mm3

here's the timing gear set i just put together for my new turbo3 engine project. the 36-1 trigger wheel is from a ford aerostar van's v6 engine. the cam gear has a magnet installed in the back side that acts as a single pulse "flying magnet" to switch a hall effect device.
Image

here's a pic of my current turbo3/ megasquirt engine's crank trigger set. it's the same wheel only it's mounted on the front side of the pulley. the vr sensor is also from the ford aerostar.
Image

i did the same type of mod on my cam gear, a flying magnet that triggers a small hall effect device for the second trigger to sync the megasquirt for sequential operation.
Image

have a look through my turbo3 project thread and you might get some ideas for your project. :wink:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:53 am 
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Hi,

Thanks t3.

I had a bad experience with not using cam cover and this is why I like to use G10 cam drive in G13B casing.
I will take a photo of G10 oil sump and oil pump as it has hole for a sensor.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:54 am 
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OK I sneaked out after lunch before I take my daughter to birthday party.

Here are 2 photos of a OEM cam drive pulley and a G10 oil pump.

Std trigger wheel for the single point injection ECU.

Image

a hole in the oil pump casting.

Image

I have a CAD data for G13 dry sump with this hole already.
I will make setup soon when I get enough pocket money to get it laser cut in 6mm ali plate.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:37 am 
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i can appreciate the direction you're heading with the lower timing gear and the timing cover. the thing i didn't like with the stock late model crank sensor is that it totally lacks any ability to adjust the sensor's air gap. plus you are pretty much stuck with the stock crank sensor.

moving the trigger wheel to the outside doesn't mean that you can't run the timing cover, i did it only because it allows me to have complete access to things during development. also, the standard variable reluctance devices (like the oem unit used on the later model suzukis) have some of their own issues and limitations. i'm moving to hall effect device position sensors as they are more stable. a vr device develops higher voltage outputs at higher rpm ranges. that complicates signal conditioning when they start developing a signal amplitude approaching 70 volts around 6000 rpm. trying to maintain a good signal at idle while protecting the processor input at redline is quite an engineering challenge. the hall effect devices develop a set output signal amplitude regardless of engine speed. here's a vr signal conditioning package that's compatible with the megasquirt controller.
http://www.stratifiedauto.com/index.php ... cts_id=200

here's another.
http://jbperf.com/dual_VR/v2_0.html#Buy

a hall effect sensor wants to see a magnetic field so the engineers came up with a type that includes a magnet built into the back plane of the sensor which allows the device to "see" gear teeth as they pass through and perturb the magnet's field.

honeywell/ microswitch has such a sensor, the 1gt1 series, that uses a package that is very similar, if not identical, to the oem suzuki crank sensor.
http://www.bbautomacao.com/home_hall_ef ... tooth.html

i'm just trying to let you see that you have a lot of choices before you head down a fixed path. :D

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:45 pm 
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Hi t3,

I'm getting very confused..... :oops: :huh: !?

I think my MS has ignitor built in and hoping to use an EDIS 36-1 wheel to trigger.
I need to study MS bit more as I'm old skool who likes carbs.
I appreciate your help very much but my brain doesn't function in many MS people's way!
I built my MS while I'm drinking and still trying to find out if works OK by using USB to serial cable.
But the one I bought.. well 2, it doesn't like to get recognised. I have to get this side sorted, first.

I shall look into your idea of coil packs as I can go in to nissan factory and ask for their samples!

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:23 pm 
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you can use the 36-1 wheel to trigger the megasquirt and use the single coil driver, stock coil and distributor, plugs wires, etc. to run the ignition.

you said edis ignition system and that's a different ignition system altogether. it uses the ford controller and the coil packs driven by the pip and saw signals derived from code on the megasquirt.

on your serial connection. you set the serial port to port 1 on your computer, connect to the megasquirt using the megastim board to power up,
Image
configure the boot loader jumper, and upload the firmware you will be running on the megasquirt. the firmware boot loader application directs you through the process and lets you watch it's progress. after the controller has it's firmware installed, the computer running megatune or tuner studio will recognize the processor whenever you start the application. whenever the application doesn't see the processor it will tell you, let you start the app off line, or let you scan the serial ports for a connection.

never build a megasquirt while you are impaired! :blackeye: i've been in electronics all my life and i wouldn't attempt that while i was drunk. :lol:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Pfffft. My soldering skills after a jug of beer are superlative.
Doesn't mean the components are in the right places.....

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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.HP is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much you push the wall out.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:07 am 
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lindsay, you gotta' stop huffing the smoke rolling off those circuit boards.

there's a reason they stopped using lead in solder. :lol:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:41 am 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
lindsay, you gotta' stop huffing the smoke rolling off those circuit boards.

there's a reason they stopped using lead in solder. :lol:

I can hook him up with something better to "huff" :yeahyeah :ez_lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:55 pm 
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The mad quebecer
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This is how we've been doing it since we started toying with the MS. Easy to do, excellent reading. We simply discard the grove next to the pulley outside face to avoid material disturbance. From there you can put the sensor anywhere on a 360deg axis as rubber doesn't interfere

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Hi,

So, I took my MS cover off to show t3 what I have done.

This is what set up I have.

Image

I think I have it's own ignitor, but I'm not sure as I was drinking and I did make few mistake as in soldering in parts I don't need and so on.
Anyhow, when I took it to my friend's work who has his setup with cable and so on.
I made my own MegaStim and it light up OK and so on.
I think I need to find serial cable to USB sorted out as 2 I bought isn't working.

While I'm posting this Jardamuth has posted!

So yours is without missing teeth. I like the idea of that. I made EDIS 36-1 but If I can make universal, I like the idea of it.
I think I need to study bit more of MS and see what will be the best setup as I don't know anything... :oops: .

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:43 pm 
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atchi, your wheel looks great.

there are lots of problems trying to get the usb to serial converters working, mostly driver and system allocation trouble. if you can, start out with an older computer that has an old school db9 serial port assigned as port 1.

jard, i wish i had a milling machine in a warm shop. :mrgreen:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:39 am 
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I bought diyautotune's adapter. I haven't used it with my MS yet but I've used it with a FAST XFi and it worked fine. I had to change the com ports around so I could have it at a lower port. Here's a link to the adapter I got.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:10 am 
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Hi 1987 Turbo Sprint,

Thanks for link.
I shall try technical support first and see if I can get it working first since I bought from good shop(not evilbay).

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:06 pm 
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The mad quebecer
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t3 ragtop wrote:
jard, i wish i had a milling machine in a warm shop. :mrgreen:


A milling machine? You mean there is an easier way than with a file? :huh:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:23 pm 
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What's a file? We use our teeth....

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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.HP is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much you push the wall out.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:19 pm 
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i thought that you kiwis used sharp volcanic rocks. :wink:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:09 am 
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MS1 really? since you're gonna be using a OEM style trigger wheel and the correcponding oil pump why not upgrade to MS2 and use a 1998+ SOHC 16v crank sprocket? it's the 36-2-2-2 desing, the same used on subarus and mazdas. it works really well with wasted spark 4 cylinders.

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'08 Suzuki SX4 Sport 2.0 , average baby carrier


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:23 am 
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yeah, the ms1 thing made me wonder, too. :huh:

i know that the ms2 daughterboard adds a $100 to the controller but i think it'd be well worth the additional expense.

i'm also well aware of the learning curve that goes along with developing a megasquirt project. it's one of those things where you don't know what you don't know when you start out. as you go along, you find more and more things that you want to add to your list and that requires changes to the original build.

i feel like i wore turbohull, sportage4x4, and other megasquirt guys out with questions over about 2 years as i was learning the actual workings of the ms2 and how it wanted to be set up. :lol:

there are an awful lot of other issues, too, like getting the communications stuff dialed in. that's what you're having problems with now. there are latency, delay issues with converting the old school serial communications to usb operation. computer operating systems like to assign ports and set up computer hardware allocations on their own and you have to know how to make the operating system live with the communications requirements of the megasquirt. it seems to boil down to the drivers associated with various usb converters. some work great and some just don't want to play well.

i even ran into problems with a controller mounted usb conversion board that was pimped as working fine with megasquirt. i had a very hidden problem with the usb board popping the controller into a virtual boot loader mode that would blow away the firmware and never let the megasquirt run without the laptop computer connected and running the tuner studio application.

what i have taken away from all of the time i've spent with the megasquirt project is that you have to achieve a certain level of expertise with the hardware and software. you go into it sort of blind, figure it out as you go along, and you learn which questions to ask as you go along.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Spot on t3, I'm reading as many thing as possible and same time getting very confused.
I did see daughterboard and so on.
Again, I need to understand what I'm doing first. I have 3 laptops and 1 even has DB9 com port.
I managed to connect DB9 to USB cable working on my wife's laptop but I haven't managed to any further as yet.
It seems that it can't communicate between my laptop and MS. My mate managed to do that so I think I need to take a time for a bit.

Thanks for all of your input guys!
I'm keep finding more and more info about this MS business.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:32 pm 
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pull the jumper block off of the bootloader pins. :D

you only install that jumper as instructed for the firmware upload. see if the software sees the processor after you pull the jumper.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 6:49 pm 
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miniswift, did you ever get that custom 36-1 trigger wheel to work with mega squirt? I really like the idea of keeping the trigger wheel in the stock location.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 4:38 pm 
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Hi,

I haven't done any thing at the moment.
Also, I managed to get hold of Adaptronics ECU which has plug and play(pray, may be?) wiring.

I will be fitting this into my engine I have been building for last 4 years!

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 12:18 am 
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i used the 36-1 5" trigger wheel from a ford aerostar concentrically mounted to a 4" aluminum under drive crank pulley.
Image

i selected an inexpensive cherry industrial hall effect gear tooth reader mounted to sense the 36-1 trigger wheel.

i used an aluminum adjustable cam pulley with a 1/8" diameter by 1" long neodymium magnet embedded into a tooth with its south pole located towards the inside of the pulley.
Image

i selected a hall effect speed sensor to read the magnet embedded in the cam gear. i bored a hole into the flange on the valve cover located so as to allow the magnet to pass the center of the face of the sensor. that gives the megasquirt i'm using the cam phase pulse count.
Image
Image

i sourced some very small chinese hall effect device signal conditioning boards, removed their mounted hall effect devices and attached the wires from the industrial heds. i like the conditioning boards because they deliver a really clean 4.56 vdc output pulse.
Image

when i tested this set up i mounted the 36-1 trigger wheel to my polishing motor on a work bench and turned it at its no load speed of 10,200 rpm. as the speed ramped up and down i used an o'scillosope to watch the signal amplitude remain rock steady at 4.56 vdc while the square wave frequency varied. i know for a fact that the data signal remains absolutely perfect up to 10,200 rpm.

i used this method on 2 engines:
my blue monster,
Image

and my lil' black monster.
Image
Image

here's hoping to give you a little inspiration for your project. :wink:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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