TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:33 am

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: 16 SOHC and Megasquirt
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 70
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Has anyone used the factory 16V SOHC hall sensor in the distributer with Megasquirt II V3. I the only signal I can get is very low and I have tried pull up resistors with no success.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 238
Location: Brinkworth, UK
What size pull up resistor are you using?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:47 am 
Offline
banned and still posting
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11026
Location: columbus, ohio
what voltage does the hall effect sensor operate with?

with the megasquirt you normally use a 1000 ohm resistor in line with the 12v output from the hall sensor to blink the led in an optoisolator. then you bias the phototransistor in the opto package for a 5v output which is then applied to the input of the processor on jp10.

if the hall sensor operates on 5v then you would use a 330 ohm resistor in place of the 1k.

the standard optoisolator is a 4n25 and there is a small component count circuit you assemble to support the opto package.

refer to the ms2extra hardware pages in the megamanual.

i saw your post on the ms2extra board from the 5th and you still haven't gotten much of a response over there. have you tried to adjust the air gap down on the sensor (run it closer to the tooth?) if you're sure you have your circuitry correct, is it possible that you have a weak sensor? it should have 3 wires, one with a 5vdc supply on it (from the megasquirt now that you're using it instead of the factory ecu) a ground that is the same point as where the megasquirt grounds are attached to preclude a ground loop, and the output signal that runs to the optoisolator's led pin along with the inline 330 ohm resistor.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 70
Location: Calgary, Alberta
First thanks for responding.

So I don't know a lot about Megasquirt wiring and I am learning as I go. Basically I sort of understand what your saying but not really.

The sensor according to the factory service manual says that it should output 5 volts but it is supplied battery voltage from the main relay. The sensor was working with the factory engine management and I get the same results from a spare distributer. The sensor has 3 wires and it is hooked up properly. What I did was run a wire from TACHSELECT to XG1, 5 volts output from prototype area to the top of C30, IGBTOUT to IGN, and IGBTIN to JS10.

I am sure this is really annoying but could you point me in the right direction with a link, its not that I am lazy but I have read 4 or 5 different ways you can wire the board for a hall sensor input and its got me very confused.

This is very frustrating as I have everything else wired up and working and when I apply the 5 volt vref coming out of the MS in line with a resistor to the hall input on the harness it detects it and flashes the yellow light and powers the fuel pump relay. I am on the verge of ordering a trigger wheel, but would like to get this working anyway for cam sync.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:11 pm 
Offline
banned and still posting
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11026
Location: columbus, ohio
i'm following you to a point. :D

in support of using the 36-1 trigger wheel for the basis of engine timing, it is much more precise to run it directly connected to the crankshaft. that gets rid of the negative effects of stretch in the timing belt causing inaccuracies in the timing count.

with the timing set up by a 36-1 wheel on the crank, the cam angle sensor only needs a single pulse occurring in the proximity of the top dead center position of the cam but outside of the corresponding location of the gap for the missing tooth and tooth #1 on the crankshaft. that means that you wouldn't time the cam angle pulse to coincide with missing tooth gap that spans 10 degrees of crank rotation. given that you usually position the missing tooth gap preceding the actual tdc of the crank position (a good rule of thumb being about twice the number of degrees as your projected ignition timing advance) you generally wouldn't run into that clash of electrical timing marks.

the only link i can give you for pics of that as an assembly are in my turbo3 thread. that link is in my sig line at the bottom of my posts.

if you use the stock cas or distributor as the cam angle sensor along with the toothed trigger wheel, you will still need to use the additional circuit to support the hall effect device. that involves using a 4n25 optoisolator to condition the signal. no matter what voltage your hall effect sensor outputs, you use it to fire the led in the opto package. you use a pull up resistor to ensure that the hall effect device fires the led. the led in turn flashes a phototransistor in the opto package that provides the signal that is applied to the pin on the processor at jp10. there is a small ccomponent count circuit that sets up bias and serves as a chopper circuit for that signal.

then you would use tuner studio to set the code to dual wheel, second input at cam speed, etc. that way the main count is established by the crankshaft and the secondary count is set by that single pulse from the cam sensor. refer to the hall effect section in the ms2 manual. scroll down to "second input" for circuit descriptions.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2 ... n.htm#hall

it appears that no matter what hall effect device you use, you still have to use a pull up resistor as part of the signal conditioning. that engineering involves knowing what current the hall effect device will handle as a load and as a current sink and choosing resistance values that bias the hall device accordingly. here's an informative link:
http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prod ... apter4.pdf

for my project i had investigated the possibility of using the cas from a late model sohc 16v that mounts on the tail end of the camshaft location. mike cove sent me a link to photos of the ends of the suzuki line of cams and i decided that due to differences in the cam, the cas idea wasn't a good one. i pursued my own vision of something that would be easier and more efficient. my technique is documented in my turbo3 thread and you are more than welcome to adapt it for your use.

i would tend to support your thought of converting to the crank mounted trigger wheel. you'll learn a lot while doing that and you'll also get the hang of the dual trigger wheel implementation. keep in mind that there's really only a couple of good reasons to use the cam angle sensor signal anyway when you use the crank trigger wheel - cop ignition instead of wasted spark and sequential injection. since you're doing a 4 cylinder, wasted spark operation is easier (spark plus in multiples of 2 sets) and the megasquirt already has 2 channels of injection available in it's standard configuration.

other than that, i can't really help you with your engineering too much as i can't be "hands on" with your set up.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 70
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Yea I ordered a trigger wheel an sensor from DIYautotune and should have it in a couple of days. As you suggested it is probably a better way to go anyways. I'll keep working on the dual trigger set-up as I hope to do a COP setup someday. I had looked into using the factory CAS and coils from the later models. I would just have to swap to a newer style cam and get it reground while I am at it. Thanks for the help.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:17 am 
Offline
banned and still posting
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11026
Location: columbus, ohio
i used 36-1 trigger wheel components from a ford aerostar van, parts of the ford edis ignition. you can very easily adapt the ford trigger wheels from a variety of ford cars, 4 cylinder, v6 and v8, for your project. you can also snag the v/r sensors from those cars.

jean belanger at jbperf makes some adapter boards that really simplify conversions to the megasquirt controller, too.
http://jbperf.com/

take a peek at my turbo3 thread for an idea on how to build a cam angle sensing rig that works with the megasquirt. my project used what is basically a single cam gear from a twincam head so you could make it work on your project. i can direct you to the inexpensive hall effect device i used.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 70
Location: Calgary, Alberta
The trigger wheel and sensor came in the mail today so I made some progress and thought I would post some pictures. Its not perfect but it should work ok. On my Sidekick I have removed the power steering pump and replaced my mechanical fan with an electric one, and even its been removed for the winter. So I have lots of room on the front of the engine. So I am making a bracket out of 1/4 inch aluminum plate for the trigger pickup sensor. I am using the factory power steering mounting bracket position. I am using a spare block to help me mock it up. Also I drilled and tapped holes in my pulley so that I can bolt the trigger wheel to the outside of the pulley.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:09 pm 
Offline
banned and still posting
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11026
Location: columbus, ohio
be careful to keep the trigger wheel run out to a minimum so you don't get signal drop out on the crank sensor. it's hard enough to dial in the v/r sensor without constantly losing your sync from a non-concentric wheel.

i used basically the same size aluminum crank pully for my project and the trigger wheel from a ford aerostar van which has about a 5" od (about a 4" id.) it looks like you'll have to chuck that trigger wheel up in a lathe and hog out the center. then, while it's chucked up, dial in the concentricity of the trigger wheel. bolt the pulley with the wheel attached onto the crankshaft.

did you get the v/r pickup or the newly listed hall effect pickup from diy?

i fought with my v/r crank sensor to get it dialed in for a stable trigger to the point where i'll opt for the slight increase in circuit complexity involved with using the hall effect sensor on my next build. the hall device provides a fully conditioned signal, optoisolated from the processor, which makes things way easier to get running. i even have an o'scilloscope and the v/r sensor had me pulling my hair. :twisted:

i built my own circuit for dealing with the hall effect device for the cam angle sensor but while i was poking around i found something that would save you a lot of development time.

http://www.stratifiedauto.com/index.php ... qr1e8dud62

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 70
Location: Calgary, Alberta
I got the new hall sensor. On the website it says that it works with just VR conditioning. But I just cant seem to get any luck, cant get a signal and I tried wiring the MS both ways.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 70
Location: Calgary, Alberta
So I finally got it working and the problem was in the harness and not on the MS. I am now getting a good signal form the hall sensor and now I just have to sort out the ignition.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:15 pm 
Offline
banned and still posting
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11026
Location: columbus, ohio
to run the hall sensor on the crankshaft you change the jumpers on the megasquirt so that the signal uses the built in optoisolator instead of the vr conditioning.

you use the opto out jumper position instead of the vr or vrinvert out.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2 ... n.htm#hall

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 70
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Yea I was doing that right the whole time :P , I was using the wrong pin on the harness :roll: .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:02 am 
Offline
banned and still posting
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11026
Location: columbus, ohio
i fell into the trap of using the standard wiring schematic instead of the ms2extra wiring plan. :huh:

megasquirt is a learning experience and the manual has become so confusing with all the options tossed together that it's sometimes hard to tell if you're on the right page. :-P

carry on. :lol:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd. - 1992 White Suzuki Swift GT

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group