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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Location: Washougal Washington
Alright, I'm brand new to the 3cyl world and just picked up a 88 "SprintMetro" (Although it says ER on the title) for $325 that needed a clutch. The car seemed solid with only a little rust on the back hatch and it started up and idles fantastic up until the choke starts to open up, then it dies on its own and wont idle.

The clutch change went great, I freshened up the gearbox with new oil and changed the plugs and oil on the motor. Its a clean car and all the soft engine components seem to be rot-free. So far I've been able to sort of keep it running by cranking in the idle adjustment screw on the drivers-side of the carburetor but its an extremely rough idle with misses and surging revs.

After I changed the clutch I could keep it running at stops and it drove somewhat alright with some slight hesitation spots in the revs. After playing with that idle screw however it is lacking power now.

Also, the PCV valve & Valve cover vent pipe that leads up into the air cleaner were blocked off... someones attempt to block a bad PCV? I removed the plug but it didn't seem to make a difference.

I attempted to check the timing but it was a balance of yanking on the throttle ever so slightly to keep it running and holding the gun in my other hand... I hooked up an old diagnostic tachometer i have and set it at 6cyl, thinking that maybe if I just cut the reading value in half it would be my RPM. As far as I can tell the timing is sitting at 20deg btdc at 1000rpm. Isn't the factory spec 9-11deg btdc? the timing is as retarted as the the distributor adjustment will allow. Poor valve adjustment?

I rented a compression tester from O'Rielly's so I'll give that a shot today. I'm a bit stumped on this complex of a carburetor (if you could even call it a carb...) without any literature. I ordered some factory shop manuals but those are probably 5 days out still.
I've looked over the MK1 carb manual that one fella here posted on photobucket, but I cant glean much else from there.

Just so you can see what I'm working with:
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Last edited by Skamaniak on Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:09 pm
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
1. What photobucket link gave you carburetor confusion?

2. Is there a fuel/vapor line visible on the sight glass?

3. Two members are very close to you; one in Gresham and one in The Dalles. Perhaps they can show you what you need to know.

_________________
DIY Broken Bolt Removal: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=41042
DIY Clutch Adjustment: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=48281
DIY Wheel Bearings: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29003
DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Location: Washougal Washington
Here's the post with the link to the manual: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38513

I haven't checked that, no... mostly because it runs so good during warmup. I'll check that out though.
I did discover that one of the wires on the largest wire plug/disconnect for the carb was not getting full contact when plugged in so I pulled it out and had to run to the hardware store to replenish my automotive electric supplies so I can put a new disconnect in just for that wire. I'm heading back out to fix that and see if it solves it. The wire on the carb side of the plug is black on red so its definitely something vital.

Will update with progress.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
Skamaniak wrote:
Here's the post with the link to the manual: http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38513

I haven't checked that, no... mostly because it runs so good during warmup. I'll check that out though.
I did discover that one of the wires on the largest wire plug/disconnect for the carb was not getting full contact when plugged in so I pulled it out and had to run to the hardware store to replenish my automotive electric supplies so I can put a new disconnect in just for that wire. I'm heading back out to fix that and see if it solves it. The wire on the carb side of the plug is black on red so its definitely something vital.

Will update with progress.

Maybe try this link to the manual
http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r211 ... %20Manual/
Image
(not sure how that picture got in there :shock: )
It goes through the pages in progression.
It is NOT for the 88 SprintMetro but many of the functions you need to understand are covered.

If your fuel/air level is OK, then you've probably got a bad MCS.
Before zeroing in on the MCS, check all 4 other electronics per the link I've posted
-bowl vent solenoid
-fuel cut solenoid
-idle microswitch
-wide open microswitch.

These carburetors are not that complex if you take it one step at a time. So check your fuel level.

Also, you will need a vacuum tester.
If you don't have one, you won't be able to finish the job.
Fal has one and like I said, he's right up your alley.
Plus, he knows how to set the float right.
If you can't see gas in the site glass, better pray he's in a good mood.

_________________
DIY Broken Bolt Removal: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=41042
DIY Clutch Adjustment: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=48281
DIY Wheel Bearings: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29003
DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Location: Washougal Washington
Fixed the wire... but still no luck.


I'll start going through that checklist you suggested. This should be interesting while lacking any books :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:42 pm 
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Location: Washougal Washington
Phil N Ed wrote:
Skamaniak wrote:
If your fuel/air level is OK, then you've probably got a bad MCS.
Before zeroing in on the MCS, check all 4 other electronics per the link I've posted
-bowl vent solenoid
-fuel cut solenoid
-idle microswitch
-wide open microswitch.


well I gave a look at these things. I dont have enough time today to go through detailed inspection of these things but the only problem I found was with the wide open microswitch.... I'm not getting the same acknowledging 'click' i get with the idle microswitch. Could that be causing this problem?

I'm not against just ordering a MCS and seeing if that solves it. It will probably need a new one sometime down the road anyway. Is there a way to test it before I do so?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:47 pm 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
Skamaniak wrote:
well I gave a look at these things. I dont have enough time today to go through detailed inspection of these things but the only problem I found was with the wide open microswitch.... I'm not getting the same acknowledging 'click' i get with the idle microswitch. Could that be causing this problem?
Is there a way to test it before I do so?

1. Microswitches:
Although a 'click' is indeed a good indication, that's not how you test the microswitches. You should use a DVOM to be sure. If the car is cold, how can you get a click of the idle microswitch? (You DID read how to set it, right?)
2. Mixture Control Solenoid:
The page on MCS's will explain EXACTLY how to test it. Having a 'look' and actually reading it are two different things, eh?
3. Vacuum Tester: Didn't quite get a handle on what you tested as far as vacuum solenoids or if you have a tester.
4. (Easiest): Didn't quite understand what you said about the fuel/air level. Was it at, above or below the mark?
That should take all of 5 seconds to check and requires NO tools.
I'm thinking that Fal might be your best bet at this point.
:oops: :oops: :oops:

_________________
DIY Broken Bolt Removal: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=41042
DIY Clutch Adjustment: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=48281
DIY Wheel Bearings: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29003
DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:17 am
Posts: 12
Location: Washougal Washington
#1: Yeah, I am well aware that the audible click is not how to tell if its actually working... a big part of my automotive experience is with MK1 and MK2 watercooled Volkswagens and they have idle and WOT switches just like this. Like I said, I just didn't have the time today to get too deep into testing things.

#2: Yes they are different... I scanned over the index but I wasn't even sure what MCS stood for. Like I said, I'm brand new to these and dont have any literature for these things yet. I'm shooting blind here.

#3: What do I need a vacuum gauge for? You've mentioned it a couple of times but I haven't seen anything in the Hitachi carb manual requiring it YET. Its definitely on my list of tools wanted eventually, now may be the time to break down and get one.

#4: Did I mention the float bowl window? I was thinking earlier that I had forgotten to mention it... But yeah, I checked the window and after having shut the car off after a warmup session, the fuel level was about 1/8" from the top of the window. I wasn't looking for a notch/mark in the window so I'm not sure exactly where it was in reference to this.


I probably sound like a total automotive novice to you guys but I really just haven't had time to devote to this project yet... work, girl, and toyota wheeler have been taking the main chunk of time :lol:

I am however falling in love with this car... So far everything about it is simple and fully functional. This is the first car I've owned with functioning backup lights 8) and i hope to use this as my daily work car asap. My 86 VW GLi only gets about 27avg so the prospect of averaging 40 something is quite appealing.

Alright, the buzz is back... time to go do some gravel drifting in the yota :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Location: Emerald city Washington
I'm totaly jacked about this car/project
and will be watching how you straighten with the help from phil
.
I just want to add and if you would like to discuse PM me but phils your man
.
now you can test the MCS if the car is warm turn the key on and place your finger on top of the carb you should be able to hear/feel the msc working

Also the Air density wire that is hooked to the back of the air cleaner
Don't neglect this it will confuse the ECM
it runs when cold mean = it runs in closed loop mode
when warm wont idle = wont run in open mode .......open mode is the ECM looking at the signals from the o2 and Air desity sensor and adjust carb cutoff soliniod, & mcs controls
look closly at your ground to body/motor/battery conection (Very important)

Blah,Blah,Blah,
.
if you have a clean title and want out Cash or Trade for another..?? I have a tow dolly and will take it
.
good luck.....jv&s
.

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t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:17 am
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Location: Washougal Washington
Have a quick update live from the garage!
Here's the float level with a cold engine, not running. Once warmed up the level was almost at the top of the glass last weekend. Is that good or bad? The faint white line between the sights is the fuel level. The perspective is a bit off in this picture, to the naked eye it looks to be resting at the top of the sights.
Image
Was wiggling hoses and discovered some of these might not be so great.... It was already cracked in half, barely hanging on.
Image
I doubt this was the cause of my problem, but its one more thing that wont aid in the cause of it not running :lol:
Looking for the method of checking the switch vent solenoid now.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:17 am
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Location: Washougal Washington
Second update! Slightly more promising...
Once warmed up and the idling issue arises, the float window is completely flooded.. i can't see a single -bubble- in there. I feel stupid for not looking at this earlier... It makes total sense: Float bowl floods out, thus the only way to maintain idle is crank up the RPM's to use up said overflow and not flood out and die. The logic sounds solid to me, but I'm used to one barrel VW Bug carbs with two screws and a vacuum line :D

Edit: As a side note, I'm not feeling any clicking/vibrations or hearing anything with the engine warmed up but engine OFF with ignition ON
Bad MCS? I'm not getting any error codes via the diagnostic system, either.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Location: Washougal Washington
Alright, I'm going to have some time to work on this again tomorrow... Haven't done anything more than drive the car around the block a few times since my last post.

What is your guys' professional opinion on my next step...
I'm making an educated guess here that since the float bowl is flooding, it is possible that all the car needs to fix the idle issue is an adjustment to the float.
My question is, can I tear down the carburetor in-car far enough to adjust the float without needing a bunch of gaskets and such. If not it sounds like it might be a good time to get a rebuild kit and a new MCS and do a rebuild on the carb and get a fresh start all around. Now is the time to do it since I have a decent daily driver right now(which I plan to sell once this is in solid shape). I ask myself: What would Phil n Ed do? :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:25 am 
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Location: Washougal Washington
Well, I finally got a MCS and rebuild kit from the guys at Carbs Unlimited Inc. I'll go into detail on my experience with them if anyone is curious but I'll just say up front that it was a very slow process.

So I spent from 12pm til 11:30PM pulling the carb off, tearing down, soaking/scrubbing(toothbrush) and reassembling with a brand spankin new MCS and a rebuilt accel. pump.
Guess what! It started up on the first try and idles like a tree now. I'm not convinced the motor is perfectly healthy yet, though because I'm still getting dead spots and such in the power. Timing is at about 11deg and I cant get it lower than that, which concerns me that somethign isn't correct in the ignition system.

Either way, its driveable and I may switch into it as my daily driver soon. I already got race buckets set basically back where the back bench used to be. I'm 6'4 and now I can scoot the seat back so far I can barely reach the steering wheel 8)

Thanks for all your help, guys. :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:55 am 
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how much did the MCS and rebuilt kit cost any tips you can share about the rebuild..?
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Image
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Location: Washougal Washington
jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
how much did the MCS and rebuilt kit cost any tips you can share about the rebuild..?


If memory serves me the MCS was $90ish and the kit was $65ish.

I dont know about tips... Rebuilding the accelerator pump took some finesse. I took a box cutter blade and cut the rubber plunger off and then wrapped the body of the pump with a cloth rag and grabbed the body with channel locks, I then very gingerly turned the pump cap with a pair of needle nose (very careful to not kink it on the shaft) while pulling upward. Once I put the new plunger on I put a rag over the top of the cap and the bottom of the main pump body and used channel locks to press the cap on. I probably could have taken different measures to ensure safety but it worked so I'm fine with my methods 8)


New problem though... this thing will buzz like crazy on flat ground (granted there are some hesitation/dead spots in the revs), but when I try to climb steep hills in second (I haven't gone anywhere that allows me to leave third) it looses power and slowly slows down. If I downshift to first it takes off and climbs the revs no problem but as soon as I hit second it still lacks power in any throttle position.

Vacuum leak?
The float level sits perfect on flat ground.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Island Inbreeder
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washoughal .?? no emission test x that cat worth about 5 + more ponys sound like you got some plugg'n going on
and dump those AC plug and get some NKG's give the valves another what for i like to set them when there stone cold


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:26 am 
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Another update! I started snooping around and brainstorming... against my instincts I set the timing to supposedly "15deg btdc" solved a lot of problems... power in 2nd again, smoother acceleration, overall more pep. Unfortunately it also runs hotter.. temp gauge was sitting at 3/4 (about 3/8" from the "hot" section of the gauge) doing 60mph down the highway, and its about 50F outside right now. The fan kicked on when I pulled into my driveway after a 1/10th mile hill climb off the main street to my house.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:34 am 
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jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
washoughal .?? no emission test x that cat worth about 5 + more ponys sound like you got some plugg'n going on
and dump those AC plug and get some NKG's give the valves another what for i like to set them when there stone cold


I'm already running NGK's that I re-gapped today. But yes, since I am technically a resident of Skamania County and am therefor exempt from emission testing I plan on either gutting or replacing the cat with a pipe.

Being from the Air-Cooled Volkswagen world I'm used to doing valve adjustments quarterly so its been hard to resist doing it to this beast.. I'll order up a valve cover gasket and give the valve lash a look-see thsi weekend hopefully. I also noticed today that the car lurches when I coast to a stop... put the front end on a jack and the drivers side caliper is sticking pretty hard. I can turn the wheel by hand but it is very difficult. I'll tear into that after work tomorrow... I'm sure its not helping acceleration.


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