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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:23 am 
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PBC137 wrote:
Ok, this has now become just fcuking frustrating.....put back everything together with new headgasket. After about 20mins of intermittent starting for around 20-30secs at a time, the engine still won't start. The culprit...compression is zero in cylinders 1, 2 and 3, but I'm getting 150 psi in #4.

I've double checked the timing and all three marks line up perfect at TDC on #1. The only thing I can think of again is the 210/340 cams holding the valves open, but even that does not make much sense.

Anyone care to offer an explanation/help please? Thanks.

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Ok i just revisited your thread
and would like to add
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The hardest part about my build was the head work
the lifters specificaly so many little parts
you must pre load tthem befor assmbly or they will collapse give you issue with no ccompression
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(QUOTE)
Next Let lifter soak in oil overnight
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jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
Knuckles wrote:
Wow that came out clean eh.
are you having the head checked at all?
and make sure you use new bolts

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thank and Thanks again for your help the disc was great I learned alot Lota of pictures...I like pictures..!

The Big block heads are for what they are a little complex now I understand $1500-$2000 for a head job is not unresonable lots and lots of labor involved .

I cleaned it with industral floor striper it was the only thing that would cut the smeggle
Parts cleaner didn't Bio Fuel, didn't I made up a piece of copper tube withholes put air to it and bubbled it in a 6 gal bucket for 10 hrs

I put a straight edge and it looked good so i might dodge a bullet will see.....

suprf1y set me up with a new set of head bolt for a great price...hope it wasn't a close out deal.?.
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I disassembled the Lifter's today it was a bitch you have to slam them hard for the inter piston comes out
and let them soak all day the check valve parts are so small once there clean and lubed there even harder to put the pieces back loaded
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the check ball springs were so tiny I could hardly work them
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a set of (16) lifter is around $150.00
it took me about 4 hrs to clean In hine sight should have just gone new but then i would have missed the wow factor
the little parts ..if they get gunked up you will ruin you motor .
that just scream Keep your oil changed and clean
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:42 am 
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Thanks JV&S. I did disassemble and clean them but given the time that I set them outside (not immersed in oil but bucket down) they were definitely *dead* meaning all the hydraulic tension was lost by the time I put them back in. They were all dead and so it seems strange that this would cause only one cylinder to have compression.

But beyond that I am trying to figure out how could no preload on the lifters cause zero compression...I would think it'd be the other way around that if they are loaded too much then they would keep the valves open a little @TDC?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:09 pm 
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I highly doubt the lifters are your problem.

Pull the intake hose off (if it is on) and jam your throttle body open. Also make sure your sparkplugs are installed.

Turn the engine over with a ratchett and listen for the sucking sound of the piston going down. If you hear it 4 times with 2 rotations of the then your valves aren't staying open. You could also make an adapter that threads into a sparkplug hole that lets you connect an air line and pump in compressed air. You'll have to rotate the engine or cams to make both valves closed and then feel if you have air coming out the exhaust port or intake port. If you don't have air then your valves are seated properly.

The lifters get pumped up by oil pressure by running the engine. If you didn't soak them it isn't really a big deal. The engine will take care of it after running for about 30 mins.

I refer you to my previous post on page 4 of this thread (made yesterday). I think you are digging too far into this engine. Your problem is likely alot simpler.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:44 am 
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Ok update.

After putting back on my stock cams and cranking....still no compression. A friend finally came over yesterday with his compressor and we put some air down each of the spark plug holes after rotating the crank so that each respective cam was off/valves closed, and guess what?

Air was escaping from both the exhaust as well as the intake.....looks like I got screwed with the head work. Now I have to remove the head and send it to another specialist to correctly seat the valves.

Which means of course, buying another set of valve seals....maybe I'll pick up a set of bronze valve guides (exhaust) from Mike while I'm at it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:43 am 
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PBC137 wrote:
Ok update.

After putting back on my stock cams and cranking....still no compression. A friend finally came over yesterday with his compressor and we put some air down each of the spark plug holes after rotating the crank so that each respective cam was off/valves closed, and guess what?

Air was escaping from both the exhaust as well as the intake.....looks like I got screwed with the head work. Now I have to remove the head and send it to another specialist to correctly seat the valves.

Which means of course, buying another set of valve seals....maybe I'll pick up a set of bronze valve guides (exhaust) from Mike while I'm at it.


Before you lift off the head... put the engine at 90* BTDC (halfway) and remove the cams completely and try the lead down test again. Regulate the pressure of the compressor to no more than 220psi.

It seems strange that the valves are leaking although you have done the valve seat fluid test.

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:46 am 
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The valves have to leak like crazy for 0 compression.
One reason maybe the fact that you may have pumped the lifter to high and your valves are a little bit open all the time.
The the liters out and get the middle part out...now with a small philips screwdriver push the little ball ...do this while holding the part in oil.After you have compressed it all the way down..let it go and it will create a vacuum inside after this you should place the bucket part of the lifers in oil with the skirt up so that it is immersed in oil...place the middle part in and there you go...now your lifters will be free of air and at the correct height.They will tick a little at startup but once the engine is warm they will pump up nicely.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:10 pm 
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ROV wrote:
The valves have to leak like crazy for 0 compression.
One reason maybe the fact that you may have pumped the lifter to high and your valves are a little bit open all the time.
The the liters out and get the middle part out...now with a small philips screwdriver push the little ball ...do this while holding the part in oil.After you have compressed it all the way down..let it go and it will create a vacuum inside after this you should place the bucket part of the lifers in oil with the skirt up so that it is immersed in oil...place the middle part in and there you go...now your lifters will be free of air and at the correct height.They will tick a little at startup but once the engine is warm they will pump up nicely.


The lifters were actually quite dead (no pressure) when they were put into the engine, so I don't think they are holding the valves open any.

@MF89, I too am surprised that they were leaking so much given that there was hardly any leaking from the fluid test. btw, we tested with 100psi pressure as it was a small compressor used.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:30 pm 
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PBC137 wrote:
The lifters were actually quite dead (no pressure) when they were put into the engine, so I don't think they are holding the valves open any.

@MF89, I too am surprised that they were leaking so much given that there was hardly any leaking from the fluid test. btw, we tested with 100psi pressure as it was a small compressor used.


Acknowledged. Please, just try the test with the cams completely out. It would remove the concern that both ROV and I have.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:38 pm 
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yes, do the pressure test without the cams , even if the pressure drops from 200 to 150 or 120 after a few seconds you should be able to start your engine.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:43 am 
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Thanks guys. Unfortunately my friend with the compressor took it back and he is a really busy guy with his own business, and I want to get this resolved asap. What I will do though, is remove the cams and see if I get any compression lock....if I turn the crank with a rachet by hand. If it rotates smoothly I’ll know for sure its the valves that are seated improperly.

I will even remove the extractor first so I’d be able to put my hand right on the exhaust port itself to feel for air escaping as I turn the crank.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:06 am 
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just use a compression gage take the cam's out remove all the spark plugs and turn it over with the starter try every hole


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:55 am 
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jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
just use a compression gage take the cam's out remove all the spark plugs and turn it over with the starter try every hole


Aah...wisdom of the ages! Thanks mate!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:22 pm 
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PBC137 wrote:
Aah...wisdom of the ages! Thanks mate!


more like delusions of the aged. :lol: =)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:14 am 
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Last time I checked, you yourself were no spring chicken eh! :rollin:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:57 am 
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jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
just use a compression gage take the cam's out remove all the spark plugs and turn it over with the starter try every hole


Got this ^^^ done....results as follows:

Cyl. 1 = 30psi

Cyl. 2 = 60psi

Cyl. 3 = 60psi

Cyl. 4 = 0psi

Definitely a valve seating issue it seems...so the head is coming off and going to a suzuki specialist to sort.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:11 am 
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before you pull the head.....
take the lifters out and take a wooden dowl like a cut off broom handle stick it on each valve stem and hit each a couple times using a hammer on the dowl while ontop of each valve stem
might give each valve stem a shot of oil
then try another compression test see if those numbers don't come up


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:13 pm 
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PBC137 wrote:
jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
just use a compression gage take the cam's out remove all the spark plugs and turn it over with the starter try every hole


Got this ^^^ done....results as follows:

Cyl. 1 = 30psi

Cyl. 2 = 60psi

Cyl. 3 = 60psi

Cyl. 4 = 0psi

Definitely a valve seating issue it seems...so the head is coming off and going to a suzuki specialist to sort.


Thats very interesting. You said that you did the valve seat liquid test and it passed. I really think you honed the block too much. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:56 pm 
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jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
before you pull the head.....
take the lifters out and take a wooden dowl like a cut off broom handle stick it on each valve stem and hit each a couple times using a hammer on the dowl while ontop of each valve stem
might give each valve stem a shot of oil
then try another compression test see if those numbers don't come up



What would this ^^^ prove jv&s? The valve seals are new. Just asking :huh:

Colin, I used kerosene for my test and someone told me I should have used gasoline cuz kerosene may have been too thick.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:14 pm 
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PBC137 wrote:
Colin, I used kerosene for my test and someone told me I should have used gasoline cuz kerosene may have been too thick.


Acknowledged. Keep us posted ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:15 am 
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PBC137 wrote:
jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
before you pull the head.....
take the lifters out and take a wooden dowl like a cut off broom handle stick it on each valve stem and hit each a couple times using a hammer on the dowl while ontop of each valve stem
might give each valve stem a shot of oil
then try another compression test see if those numbers don't come up



What would this ^^^ prove jv&s? The valve seals are new. Just asking :huh:

Colin, I used kerosene for my test and someone told me I should have used gasoline cuz kerosene may have been too thick.

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I'm of the school before you pull the head sometime sh**t happen and maybe just maybe the valve are off seat and by tapping them them might seat (change compression numbers ...It's a shot ?
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but now i'm with our racer friend you might have ported into the crucial valve seat area...that would suck majora :(
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Hardly unlikely, since I did the porting myself and never used the carbide tip from the valve port side, always from the manifold side. What I did insert was the stone tip and was quite, quite careful not to bring it within at least 1.5-2cm of the valve seat area. Further to that, the valve seats were cut after all porting was done, and just swirl polished after. I think it might just be the valves need to be lapped properly. But only the mad scientist can tell, when the head gets to him tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:41 pm 
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The prognosis is in....the head work wrt the valve port cutting, seating and lapping was a hack job, from what the specialist says. The reason that I was getting no compression at all in #4 was due to slightly bent valves which were being held open.

Thank goodness there’s now some sanity to the madness! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:04 pm 
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good to hear... and now on with this show ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Almost forgot to update the thread.

Got back the head from the 2nd head specialist and put it on.....still zero compression. Having all but given up I asked another mechanic friend to take a look.

Before I reveal the problem....anyone want to take a shot as to what was the cause (Not you MF89, that would be cheating!)?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:55 pm 
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I'll give it a shot ......
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Missing valve spring spacer(washer) forgot to put them in before installing valve springs.?
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............jv&s
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