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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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 Post subject: g series turbo jetboat
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:12 pm 
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hello everyone. I live in New Zealand and have just begun building a small 3m jetboat for use on our local rivers here. I was initially planning on running a bike engine due to their low weight and high power output, there is considerable work however in adapting the engine for a jet setup. using a car engine it is as simple as bolting up to the flywheel. I was put onto the idea of using a car engine when i saw a quoted weight of 50kg for a g13b minus gearbox. Is this realistic? if so then this should be a much easier(and cheaper) way of powering the jet. have also read that the g16 is not much heavier so could possibly use that.

Whichever engine i choose i will be turbo'ing it using only bolt on modifications (at first anyway) I dont mind doing head swaps etc but i dont want to start buying forged internals straight off. I am lucky that in a jetboat i will have none of the space issues encountered in cars, nor driveline weakness issues. I will be running a large air/water intercooler which should provide much cooler intake temps compared to a car. exhaust will just be a short straight pipe running off the turbo. i will be using a megasquirt ecu and realise i will have to upgrade injectors etc.

there are 3 possible engine setups i am investigating. g13b, g16b, or g16block/g13head.

firstly can anyone confirm what cr i would end up using the 13/16 combo with standard g16b pistons? have tried searching but have not found a definate figure.

secondly what kind of hp figure would i be looking at with each of my 3 options turbo'd to a realistic state of tune. i will not be running the engine at high output for long periods of time, just to get up onto the plane and for brief bursts of fun. long runs will be done at cruise.

any help would be greatly appreciated!

cheers,
Adam.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Also getting mighty confused regarding vitara pistons in anything other than a g13b. what cr would i end up with if i used a vitara g16b with a g13b head? is it only the vitara g16 that has these special pistons?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:50 pm 
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The G16 is not a great motor. I would stay away from it. If you want to run high boost, the 16V sohc g13 pistons are a better choice. If you are not running high boost, the stock flat tops are ok.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:06 pm 
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What are the weaknesses of the g16b over the g13b? from what ive read so far i might be best off just getting a 16v vitara g16b and turbo'ing it as is.. 9.5cr should be ok with a very effective intercooler, 97 octane fuel and not tonnes of boost? i do want to avoid having too much lag if possible for getting onto plane. I don't want to start with an inferior engine however.. could anything be done to remedy the g16's faults?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:31 pm 
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The vitara pistons only become 'special' when you use them in a g13b, otherwise they are still around 9-1 in a g16a/b.

G13b is a wee bit more than 50kgs, lose the flywheel and you'll be getting close.

Wouldn't waste my time with megasquirt in NZ you can buy a 2nd hand link ecu for NZ$400-500 and every 2nd tuner is quite capable of tuning it, or if you want something even cheaper I have this old school microtech which would be perfect, you'll just need a mk1 gti mechanical dizzy. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=53511

Using the twincam head on a g16 is probably not worth the hassle for your application.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Cheers Dattman

the reason i was wanting to go for a megasquirt was the ability to self tune using a laptop. could i do that with a link or microtek? i've been planning on getting a wideband anyway and i cant really put a boat on the rollers.. I'm based in masterton so not really close to any decent tuners either. does anyone know if the newer m series engines are much heavier than the g series? suitability for turbo? Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:43 pm 
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Yes you can get hand controllers and laptop connections for both Link and Microtech ECU's, not the one I have for sale of course because you use a screw driver, personally I would get a 'Stink' link and get a g13b basemap installed and fine tune it using a hand controller, a boat is not a great place for a laptop, the microtech LT10 that I have in my race car is much nicer to program than a link but microtechs are preconfigured for specific engines and need to go back to Oz to change options, microtechs for g13b's are actually setup for 4age's and I run a toyota dizzy, works very well.

Here's another option, bit heavier but is a factory turbo engine
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-par ... 747236.htm

Here's a link, not sure what it was running though.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-par ... 965363.htm

Price comprarison with MS2
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-par ... 686275.htm

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:16 am 
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Location: Melbourne
g16b bare not fly/clutch, manifolds, dizzie, alt and starter

55kg -FCW crank
53kg- NFCW crank

M18a VVT - same as above
70kg

M18a non VVT
69kg

Knife edge crank -2.5kg
Lightweight pulley -1.5kg
Lightweight rocker cover -1kg
Lightened front timing cover - 500gsm
Total: around 5kg

kightened M18a non VVT 64kg

G16b with Honda D16 z6 crank knife edged and turbo
abour 65kg.

Better hp/torque potential for weight G16B

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:41 am 
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Thanks for the replies guys, have decided to go for the extra lightweight option with a small 3cyl, probably factory turbo g10a. did all of these have alloy blocks? have read mixed reports.. the jetski which has donated its pump unit had 120hp so ill be happy if i can get there for now. Dattman you wouldnt happen to know of any g10 turbo's around would you? or a good place to look for them?


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:49 am 
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Unfortunately we never got the turbo 3 in NZ, we got the 4 cyl twincam instead, I have only seen a couple of turbo 3s and they have been jap imported early versions, however I have seen 'Blairs tyres and Engines' had one lised on their website and I have spotted a couple of late model g10's high up in their racking while I have been on their premises but couldn't tell if they were turbo or not, might be worth chasing up.

Either use a daihatsu gtti engine, factory 12v 3cyl turbo or you build a turbo g10, there are many threads on this and you can either make a 'steam pipe' manifold or get one from turbine tech, look under manufacturers on this site.

If you want really light then how about a 'Kei' class jetboat? :mrgreen:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =473489695

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:08 pm 
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Cheers Dattman, had seen a few expired listings on TM for the turbo ones so assumed they were released here. Sounds like a non turbo g10 might be my best starting base, in that case i would go straight to a supercharger as this would suit a jetboat. probably an eaton m45 if i can find one, they seem a bit less common than the m90 here? one question i have is regarding the throttle body injection all non turbo g10's apparently have? using an aftermarket standalone ecu would i be able to tune this reliably under boost? thanks


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:16 am 
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M45 would be the obvious choice, much better than the sc12's commonly available, just need to check the aftermarket ecu can handle 3 cyls as some can't.
Factory 3 cyl intake manifold is not particularly good as it has a single throttle body injector, the factory turbo 3 has injectors in the head and fuel rail like a gti, I actually have a 3 cylinder fuel rail and injectors (which you might be able to prise out of me :lol: ) if you want to make a proper intake manifold and stick the injectors in the runners.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:42 am 
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Cheers Dattman.

After spending the entire day researching i think i have found an ideal engine. K10a 1L out of a early 2000's alto or wagon r. all alloy DOHC 4 cyl should be a bit easier ecu wise. NA version readily available and cheap. also came in turbo version so should be able to find upgrade parts if i decide to tune above standard internals' capabilities. 70hp standard 10:1 compression not super high. i figure an m45 should get me to my 120hp without huge problems. has anyone has experience with these engines? know of any potential issues i might run into? I have read that the NA and Turbo engines are internally identical apart from pistons, both even have piston squirters can anyone confirm?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:10 am 
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I doubt anyone on here has experience with these engines, I don't think any F or K series (same bellhousing and very similar) were sold in North America where most members on this site reside.

Best bet is 'Team Mighty Boy' Aussie site all about mighty boys and there is some info on various F and K engines, 500-100cc.

Personally I would be a little concerned with the strength of the rods in a K engine, g10 is a much stronger engine, guys are getting 150-200hp out of them reliably, forged wisco pistons with gti rods will build a very strong bottom end, almost nothing available for K series engines, there is a bit of stuff out of India for the F8 as the engine is used in several classes of racing but it's all atmo and quality of parts and reliability of information is sketchy at best.

Have you had a good look at the daihatsu gtti engine?, all alloy factory turbo, twincam head and parts are easier to get.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:28 am 
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are they all alloy too? thought id read somewhere they had iron blocks. if i could find a decent one it would be great but all the turbo models seem to command a good price and have probably had a hard life. also seems a bit silly to buy a turbo motor and take the turbo off to supercharge it.. my setup would be best with just a supercharger it will have an exclosed engine box and im trying to limit heat. water jacketed exhaust manifolds are much simpler sans turbo. think g10 or k10 NA looks like the way to go i'll try the site you recommended to see if i can find anything about the k series strength.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Hi again guys, have pretty much decided to go for the k10a. There is a low k's one going cheap on TM at the moment and have found some info relating to guys getting good power out of the turbo version, so if the NA rods/pistons turn out to be weak i can always upgrade to turbo ones. My real weak point is engine management.. have been trying to study up but not getting far. Can anyone suggest a good ecu for the k10a? or a link to a step by step guide for deciphering what type of management i will need? cheers!


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Cool, keep us informed of the build, not many people doing anything with k series atm, can't see why you can't use a g1 link, shouldn't cost more than 6 hundy, worse case is you send it back to Link here in Chch and get them to change the triggering options once you figure out the dizzy/cam/crank sensing.

Stay away from Microtech, I have one in my car and it's fantastic but they need to be specifically configured for that engine, sending back to Oz will take upto 6 weeks and cost considerably more than the $70 that Link charge, mine is configured as a 4age and I run a 4age dizzy, the 4age map was fairly close allowing me to get the car running enough to get it to the dyno guy, a g13b map would be a good starting point if you do buy a link, they have basemaps to suit as there are tons of Offroaders running these engines in NZ.

If you want to shell out $1500 you have much more choice, the new links are awesome, Haltech, Adaptronic, EMS are all fairly similar, just depends what your tuner is familar with.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Cheers Dattman. think i will stick with something fairly cheap the chance of drowning it will be rather high! if i buy this engine once it arrives ill have a look and see what type of triggering etc it runs (once i work out what that even means!) will certainly put up a link to a build thread when i finally get around to starting one. not sure if taking the less trodden path with the k series is a good thing or not!


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:49 pm 
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KISS
G10T for the win or G13B bottom end and g16a 8v top end with boost.
The weight of the 8v head vs 16v twin cam head will allow a small turbo
to make more power than an NA 16v twin cam.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Hi again guys

ended up buying a NA K10a out of an alto, seem to be enough around to make replacing any i blow up fairly cheap/simple. might have an eaton m45 lined up for it as well

Will see how i go on standard internals at first(with a large water/air cooler and 98 octane) I will go straight for a big fuel pump to cover any future upgrades. The main thing i need to sort parts wise is injectors.. would anyone know what size k10a turbo injectors would be? or any larger ones i might be able to get?


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:20 pm 
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north america didn't get that model engine. the canadian turbo3 is a 1 liter g10 that uses injectors rated at 210cc/min in the factory trim.

i have one modified g10 that runs 460cc/min injectors and another build in progress that will run 330cc/min injectors.

your injector selection will largely be based on the amount of boost you plan to use and your target hp.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:16 pm 
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Remember you are splitting the HP across 4 cylinders not 3 so factory Turbo 3 would actually flow enough but you need 4 of them so I would suggest high impedance 4age injectors, just about any ECU will drive them and they are good for 40hp per injector, that's what I use in my microtech.

I see there is a link ecu on trademe for a turbo 4age, would be suitable for your application.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 5:08 am 
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Cheers guys,

Having never swapped injectors before i was under the impression that they were all different shapes and sizes? Would the 4age ones likely be a bolt in fit? they sound about right hp wise. would the 600cc difference not matter with the link?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:21 am 
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Come to think of it I have no idea of what injectors they use in a K10, the g10 non turbo have a single injector and my guess they would do the same on the k10, you'll need to pull it apart and figure out whats in there and decide whether you can adapt it or if you have to make a custom intake manifold with injectors, you might find it has injectors in the head like g13b twin cam or g10 turbo, the ones in our cars are nippon denso style which are commonly used in toyotas.

I think mine might actually be 3sfe, pretty sure they are darkblue, 13.8ohms and 200cc, but there are others in the pdf I have attached which would be suitable.
A lot of ecu's don't like driving low impedance injectors so it's preferable to get the high impedance versions, anything over 8 ohms is fine.

The link ecu would need to be tuned anyway, a factory 4age only made 130hp and I suspect you'll be aiming for 100-120 with a turbo so pretty close anyhow.


Attachments:
Injectors.pdf [27.09 KIB]
Downloaded 46 times

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:44 am 
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cheers guys, should hopefully be able to find something that will work.

engine should be here mid next week i'll report back when it arrives!


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